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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:54 am 
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Xfing wrote:
By "D1 POGs" I meant custom textures taken from the D1 exclusive roster. It has no such textures, so changing the PIG is way easier, since you don't have to replace the textures again.

Also, while editing that one minor misalign in the editor, I noticed the secret switch right next to the exit that opens the secret doors on both sides. There are a few things to consider with this:
- Without an afterburner, it takes close to 30 seconds to make it to the exit from the reactor's approximate location
- I don't remember noticing the switch, in the exit tunnel, mostly due to the reason above. Perhaps it would be a better idea to move the switch closer to the beginning of the exit tunnel, so that it's more readily available
- Haven't checked - do the doors stay open, or do they close normally so you only get one shot at both of them?


I agree it's a bit tight. It could serve as a risk/reward thing. I was able to fly through both of them without an afterburner, although that's me knowing the switch is there and having enough time to do so, even on Insane. They're one time doors too, but if you time it right you can make it. I can see the case for moving the switch closer, that's okay with me. If the player can only get to one of the doors, that's not so bad either ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Would be an interesting choice between a fusion and a couple shakers to have to make on the spot.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:39 am 
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LightWolf wrote:
Would be an interesting choice between a fusion and a couple shakers to have to make on the spot.


More like an extra life or three megas and two shakers. Fusion is going to be readily available at that point, dropping from fusion hulks.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:26 am 
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Xfing wrote:
an extra life or three megas and two shakers.


Exactly what I was thinking!


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:19 am 
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Funny thing though - extra lives are not that essential if you play with the intent to not die even once. And yet still they're probably the most exciting power-up to encounter. Kinda like all the various spheres in Doom. They are not always essential in terms of their effects, but they look so cool and mysterious you're always happy when you find them :D

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:13 am 
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Well, if you've made it that far in the mission you don't need any extra lives, but you do need megas and shakers to keep you from losing too many lives.
The right choice there is gonna be too obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:16 am 
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Alter-Fox wrote:
Well, if you've made it that far in the mission you don't need any extra lives, but you do need megas and shakers to keep you from losing too many lives.
The right choice there is gonna be too obvious.


Both doors are close enough to the exit that I don't think a choice will be forced, not with an afterburner at the very least.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:39 am 
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I just uploaded a small document to the dropbox with more details on my hub world idea.
Flowcharts need more time. A small break from work is coming up in a couple weeks and I might have time to do them up then.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Seems pretty straight forward. I do have a suggestion for a change, however. Should I PM you or just post it here? (I don't have write access to Dropbox)

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Quite interesting stuff, but also quite complicated. I'm actually surprised that D2X-XL allows for such crazy shenanigans.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Go ahead and post it LW. My inbox is super-full. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:29 pm 
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I think (MN2-wise) all of the hubs should come after level 54. That way you can cold-start a level without having to sort through all of the individual hubs every few levels.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Something I had considered but discarded. I very much dislike the idea of having all the levels up to 54 in the mission unlocked from the level select as soon as the player makes it past level 5.
Keeping the level order intact wouldn't really matter to most players - I only know of one person who likes to do that kind of cold start on non-parallax missions. And that person uses Rebirth.

Plus, since we won't put any sort of powerups or hostages on the hubs it would kinda mostly keep your cold start intact anyhow.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:44 am 
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That really might work out for XL fans, but I insist we also do a proper, retro-styled Rebirth version my way :D

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:58 am 
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Made some general progress on Tholin, and I've got a question about the D1 textures. I'm building this as a D2 map, but are all the textures for D1 included in the PIG files? I've added the D1 POG file related to the Ice PIG into my map, but all it's really changed is the lights and a few textures. Am I missing some extra stuff? I haven't worked on a D1 map for this mission yet, sorry for the confusion and if it's already been said. I don't feel like digging through 28 pages :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:02 am 
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Kaizerwolf wrote:
Made some general progress on Tholin, and I've got a question about the D1 textures. I'm building this as a D2 map, but are all the textures for D1 included in the PIG files? I've added the D1 POG file related to the Ice PIG into my map, but all it's really changed is the lights and a few textures. Am I missing some extra stuff? I haven't worked on a D1 map for this mission yet, sorry for the confusion and if it's already been said. I don't feel like digging through 28 pages :lol:


No, the D2 PIG files do not contain certain textures from D1. The same goes for Pumo's new Descent.PIG for D2. Inserting all the textures left out of the original would to my knowledge require some advanced programming skills and tools. The POG templates are good to use since they replace the monitors with D1 versions (that behave properly when shattering and when the mine is blown up), and they replace some other random textures, but if you want more D1-specific textures, you'll have to import them yourself. There is a folder on Dropbox named EXCLUSIVETX, which contains all the textures that didn't get carried over to D2, you can use those without needing to export them from D1 piecemeal. I recently even added one texture I had missed, which came up when I was re-texturing Lightwolf's Varuna level.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:20 am 
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BTW, I've just noticed that in Salt Distillation Facility the entry hatch opening puzzle can become a trap, since the doors are marked as locked from the inside. Fixing that right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:52 am 
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Xfing wrote:
BTW, I've just noticed that in Salt Distillation Facility the entry hatch opening puzzle can become a trap, since the doors are marked as locked from the inside. Fixing that right now.


Woops, thanks. I tend to leave "Set Both Sides" enabled in DLE, so I always forget that about locked door traps. That's not the case for Ohm's ending secret, I promise.

Also cool, I'll find out what textures I want to have. Tholin is going to be a cool level, I'm going to have more metal-ish parts as a lab bit, and then a sort of ring around the whole thing with more color, purples and blues and stuff! I've got a look in my head, I just have to make the dream come true! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:01 am 
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Kaizerwolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:
BTW, I've just noticed that in Salt Distillation Facility the entry hatch opening puzzle can become a trap, since the doors are marked as locked from the inside. Fixing that right now.


Woops, thanks. I tend to leave "Set Both Sides" enabled in DLE, so I always forget that about locked door traps. That's not the case for Ohm's ending secret, I promise.

Also cool, I'll find out what textures I want to have. Tholin is going to be a cool level, I'm going to have more metal-ish parts as a lab bit, and then a sort of ring around the whole thing with more color, purples and blues and stuff! I've got a look in my head, I just have to make the dream come true! :lol:


Yeah, do whatever you fancy, just make sure the level looks like a D1 level. That of course means all textures from D2 are banned, in case you didn't remember :D

There are some very, very minor exceptions to this rule in some of the latest levels from the Solar System, but generally they should be made only using D1 textures. That's why some opt to make the level as D1 first, and then convert it. Just make sure you are moving within that constraint.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:33 am 
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Xfing wrote:
Kaizerwolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:
BTW, I've just noticed that in Salt Distillation Facility the entry hatch opening puzzle can become a trap, since the doors are marked as locked from the inside. Fixing that right now.


Woops, thanks. I tend to leave "Set Both Sides" enabled in DLE, so I always forget that about locked door traps. That's not the case for Ohm's ending secret, I promise.

Also cool, I'll find out what textures I want to have. Tholin is going to be a cool level, I'm going to have more metal-ish parts as a lab bit, and then a sort of ring around the whole thing with more color, purples and blues and stuff! I've got a look in my head, I just have to make the dream come true! :lol:


Yeah, do whatever you fancy, just make sure the level looks like a D1 level. That of course means all textures from D2 are banned, in case you didn't remember :D

There are some very, very minor exceptions to this rule in some of the latest levels from the Solar System, but generally they should be made only using D1 textures. That's why some opt to make the level as D1 first, and then convert it. Just make sure you are moving within that constraint.


How hard is it to convert? I haven't done a whole lot just yet, just about 100 cubes of layout, so I might be able to just restart it as a D1 level.


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 am 
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Kaizerwolf wrote:
How hard is it to convert? I haven't done a whole lot just yet, just about 100 cubes of layout, so I might be able to just restart it as a D1 level.


The conversion itself is pretty much instantaneous, but the editor prompts you to choose what every texture will be converted to once the transition is made. This can also be skipped and the editor's default suggestions can be taken, which is not optimal if you're aiming for a D1-style level.

It's best to leave the monitors to their default conversion suggestions, since these are the ones that the template POG replaces anyway. That makes the monitors themselves pretty much 1 to 1 once the POG is imported. Otherwise, the only problemtatic thing can be the green brick hidden door - I usually convert it to the orange-ish/tan secret door from D1 to preserve the opening and closing sound from the sound patch (D2's doors don't have it), and it also has 7 frames, just like the door you'll be replacing, so it's easy enough to replace every frame one by one.

And finally, there are the D1-exclusive textures you use in the mine. Just choose some theme from D2, like icy rocks or desert rocks and start putting those textures there, then you'll be able to import and replace the textures manually.

It's a bit of work generally, so it's much better to start doing this in D2. The only advantage of making the level in D1 is that you won't accidentally use a texture that wasn't in D1. But I'd suggest simply opening another empty mine using D1's PIG so that you can verify whether the texture you wanna use was in D1 to begin with, by looking up the texture's name in the D1 mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Xfing wrote:

It's a bit of work generally, so it's much better to start doing this in D2. The only advantage of making the level in D1 is that you won't accidentally use a texture that wasn't in D1. But I'd suggest simply opening another empty mine using D1's PIG so that you can verify whether the texture you wanna use was in D1 to begin with, by looking up the texture's name in the D1 mine.


Not a bad idea, I might do it this way. It's going to be weird planning for mostly door secrets too, no switches!


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:03 pm 
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Kaizerwolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:

It's a bit of work generally, so it's much better to start doing this in D2. The only advantage of making the level in D1 is that you won't accidentally use a texture that wasn't in D1. But I'd suggest simply opening another empty mine using D1's PIG so that you can verify whether the texture you wanna use was in D1 to begin with, by looking up the texture's name in the D1 mine.


Not a bad idea, I might do it this way. It's going to be weird planning for mostly door secrets too, no switches!


Yyyyep, the secrets in D1 are basically just doors. But that definitely has some charm, take for example First Strike's Level 23 secrets. Quite extensive secret areas can be made. You can make the doors normally locked but triggerable by something though, that can add some spice.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Took another look at Reactor Ohm. The fuel center segment in the reactor area wasn't designated as such, so I fixed it. I also moved the secret switch closer to the start of the exit tunnel like we discussed.

I also compared the way some textures look carefully, and decided to make this level descent.pig after all. You do like using large amounts of those industrial, metal-like grays, along with lots of gray rock, and those textures definitely look best and least distorted with descent.pig. The only downside is that the water is dark blue, but seeing as how it's supposed to be a coolant fluid, that could probably even work to our benefit.

Oh, and I've also added in some gratuitous D1-exclusive textures, since I noticed the level was sorely lacking in that department. Nothing particularly clashing or invasive, only some single-instance decorations in general.

EDIT: I've also finally figured out Lightwolf's method for making seamless, curved water bodies. When he wrote the following:

LightWolf wrote:
The way I did my water is simple: Treat the water as though it were on a regular rectangular face as opposed to a curved one, and this should be reflected in the texture edit. It does have its faults though - notice how the water is stretched weird in several triangular areas.


he meant taking a texture from one face of the segment and distorting it in point mode so that it appears fully rectangular in the editor. An example from Dacol Futyl Caverns:
Image

It's of course impossible for segments in a curved tunnel to be rectangular, because then the tunnel wouldn't be curved at all. But it's possible to make the textures behave as if they were rectangular - which means they keep the same direction and are seamlessly joined, even though the tunnel is curved, not straight. I tried to replicate this, and it's enough to do one face and then just use the "align all adjacent sides with the same texture" (or whatever the hell it's called) button for a completely aligned tunnel. It's quite an impressive technique. I think i'm going to try it out on the coolant pits for Reactor Ohm and see if I can replicate the effect.

EDIT 2: So I've played around and here's the effect. The pool to the left wasn't touched, and the pool to the right was changed with the discussed technique. When animated the effect is even better. Yeah, definitely doing this for all the other pools too :D

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:18 am 
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One little warning with asymmetric stretching like that: if you care about the DOS version, its (less robust) texture mapping technique tends to cause textures aligned in that way to "twitch". If you don't care about the DOS version, carry on. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:40 am 
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Sirius wrote:
One little warning with asymmetric stretching like that: if you care about the DOS version, its (less robust) texture mapping technique tends to cause textures aligned in that way to "twitch". If you don't care about the DOS version, carry on. :mrgreen:


Actually I do :O but oh well, it'll be a good day if we can even run this thing in the DOS version at all :D

Also, there's back-and-forth flickering in the cavernous area of The Cauldron, and that's even in Rebirth. Black flickers appear on the walls, generally when viewed from afar (they disappear when you're up close). Probably has something to do with the ungodly cube count in that area.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:33 am 
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I've reverted Reactor Ohm back to Fire.PIG, the water color did bother me after all.

I also took another look at Dacol Futyl Caverns. Fixed some texturing issues that bothered me (the green slime grates as water sources most prominently - don't do it like that!). I also added copious amounts of arbitrary D1-exclusive textures, since there was a lot of potential in the level for doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:04 am 
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Xfing wrote:
Sirius wrote:
One little warning with asymmetric stretching like that: if you care about the DOS version, its (less robust) texture mapping technique tends to cause textures aligned in that way to "twitch". If you don't care about the DOS version, carry on. :mrgreen:


Actually I do :O but oh well, it'll be a good day if we can even run this thing in the DOS version at all.

Yeah. Even as my levels go the bigger ones will load in dos but framerates are best described as totally unplayable.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:58 am 
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Xfing wrote:
Also, there's back-and-forth flickering in the cavernous area of The Cauldron, and that's even in Rebirth. Black flickers appear on the walls, generally when viewed from afar (they disappear when you're up close). Probably has something to do with the ungodly cube count in that area.

Yeah, you're probably hitting the maximum render depth - it's high on Rebirth but I don't think it's unlimited.


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Xfing wrote:
Also, there's back-and-forth flickering in the cavernous area of The Cauldron, and that's even in Rebirth. Black flickers appear on the walls, generally when viewed from afar (they disappear when you're up close). Probably has something to do with the ungodly cube count in that area.

Yeah, you're probably hitting the maximum render depth - it's high on Rebirth but I don't think it's unlimited.


Ok, thanks for the heads up. Feel like doing Glacierspire anytime soon after all? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Yeah, I definitely do feel like it. I've had issues with project overload :)
I'm not holding up the project at this stage, am I? It's just a "how long can it possibly take" issue?


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Yeah, I definitely do feel like it. I've had issues with project overload :)
I'm not holding up the project at this stage, am I? It's just a "how long can it possibly take" issue?


Of course you're not holding anything up. We're working very slowly but progress has been somewhat steady. I'm just anxious to see your level, being aware of how good your designs are. No rush :D

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:01 am 
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Here's some previews of Tholin;

Image

Image

Image

Image

The last two are a huge area for the red key. I've got some tuning up to do the make the tunnels have a bit more variation, but I'll get to that soon! I've also got to download the updated Reactor Ohm and add some basic powerups to where secrets are, since I know at least one of them isn't super obvious (the reactor room grate is a secret).


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:05 pm 
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The geometry looks really nice here! Not sure about the color scheme though. Blue and purple together feel more like Venus or Secret level 3 than Uranus. Uranus requires greens, make sure to include some :D

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:36 am 
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Xfing wrote:
The geometry looks really nice here! Not sure about the color scheme though. Blue and purple together feel more like Venus or Secret level 3 than Uranus. Uranus requires greens, make sure to include some :D


I think I may be able to swing the caves area to be green textures. I was watching a Miranda playthrough on YouTube because I'm lazy, and I didn't let it get far enough to be green!


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:42 am 
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Hey X... Where are you thinking of introducing Red Hulk/Lou Guard here?
I had an interesting idea for how that might be done a bit scarier than it was in D1/D2.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:22 am 
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Alter-Fox wrote:
Hey X... Where are you thinking of introducing Red Hulk/Lou Guard here?
I had an interesting idea for how that might be done a bit scarier than it was in D1/D2.


Dunno. Eris is definitely gonna have several, since it's meant to be "that one level" for the Solar System portion. But earlier than that, I dunno. Prolly around Pluto.

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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Weeeell then... I think I shall claim charon if nobody's done it yet.

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The eyes of the plush lobster stared deep into my soul. I touched it, made as if to pick it up, and then I was a panther.
BEWARE RAZZADOON'S SNOUT!!
...

Also beware my original music, at http://soundcloud.com/snowfoxden and http://vertigofox.bandcamp.com


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Alter-Fox wrote:
Weeeell then... I think I shall claim charon if nobody's done it yet.


I'm seeing a Descent 3 style cutscene, mixed with "A challenger approaches!" from Smash Brothers... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Descent 1 1/2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Alter-Fox wrote:
Weeeell then... I think I shall claim charon if nobody's done it yet.


Ticking it off!

Hell guys, you two have really been on a roll! Too bad I myself haven't got a lot of inspiration right now, definitely will be doing one Vertigo portion level though, I need to make an almost entirely lablike level kinda like Lunar Scilab, and I don't see a good Solar System spot for it. Then again, maybe Charon would be a good spot for it.

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