SSD OS Migration question

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SSD OS Migration question

Post by Tunnelcat »

I've got a nice shiny Samsung 840 EVO 500 gb SSD drive coming tomorrow and I've been researching migrating the OS to the new drive. I've noticed in Samsung's migration guide that they're using a USB to SATA converter cable to copy the OS to the SSD, THEN they're having you install the drive using a SATA cable. They do sell a nice kit to do this, but I couldn't find one sold anywhere in the U.S., so I only bought the bare drive. Plus, people have been having issues with some aftermarket USB to SATA converter cables not allowing the Samsung software to see the SSD. Can't find Samsung's cable for sale anywhere either. :roll:

My question is, can the SSD be hooked up via a SATA cable to a SATA port to do the migration, preferably using Samsung's own software, and do I have to leave the SSD on this same port for things to boot properly once the OS is cloned? Right now, I have my HDD on SATA 1, my game HDD on SATA 2 and the DVD drive on SATA 3.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

Should work over SATA also just fine.

Once the clone is done, it doesn't matter which specific port from 1 to 4 the SSD is connected to, the OS should still boot and call it C: just fine as long as BIOS is set to boot from the SSD first. The easiest way to make sure that happens is simply to disconnect the old hard drive (no need to move the SSD), but you could also change the boot priority in BIOS. However, BIOS normally searches for active partitions starting at port 1 and then goes down the sequence, so it is good practice to just put the OS drive on the first port. You are going to have to have the case open anyway, so you might as well swap the SSD to port 1 once it is done just to keep things pretty.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Good. I was wondering about the SATA cable ordering.

But Samsung seems to want to us a USB to SATA adapter to do the cloning. Nowhere I've looked can I find if I the drive can be cloned using Samsung's Migration software with the SSD actually plugged into a SATA port on the motherboard instead of through their perferred USB adapter (which they don't supply with a bare drive and I dare you to find the kit in the U.S.). And it seems that Samsung's software is a little finicky about even finding the SSD using many of these USB to SATA adapters out on the market. So I guess what I'm asking is that if I unplug my game HDD and plug in it's SATA cable into the SSD, will their migration software find the drive and work?

And another question that Samsung doesn't answer, but an online youtube installer did indicate, does the SSD really need to be formatted first before cloning? I'd think that their migration software would do all that as part of the process.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

The samsung migration software detects the drive just fine if it is directly on a SATA port, I know because I've seen it myself. (Got my sister an 840 EVO for her laptop a month or so back, looked at the migration software then. I ended up using ghost anyway though because I was doing the clone using a second computer and the samsung software only supports cloning the system it is running on.)

No need to format first, cloning implies formatting the destination drive (actually if you format it first, it will give you a warning about the clone erasing the contents).
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Hooking it up to a free SATA port will make the whole process considerably faster. If you want to do USB, I have an USB SATA adapter you could borrow. PM me if you want it.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Thanks Krom. Nice to know before I try this. But a couple of last noob questions. :mrgreen:

If I clone the SSD drive from say, SATA port 4, and my OS drive is still on SATA port 1, then I disconnect my original OS HHD from SATA 1 after shutdown and plug the SSD onto SATA 1, will any problems crop up upon reboot? And if I do perform the clone using one of my SATA ports, will my SSD still end up as the C: drive when all's said and done?

Also, have you had to repair the MBR after cloning? Sorry to ask all this. I've never done this complicated of a computer upgrade before.

Thanks for the offer Grendel. If I have problems, I'll take you up on the offer. :)
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Grendel »

Using the Samsung software, it should work just fine. Your boot drive will be C: no matter what port it's connected to (assuming ports 1-4 here). After the 1st boot from the cloned drive windows will find the new drive as "new hardware" and ask you to reboot, this is normal. Also, after the new drive is up and running, check the System Protection settings, I vaguely remember that I had to turn it back on w/ some systems.

I got that USB dongle at work, near Staples. Should only be a short trip if you need it :)
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Thanks Grendel. I'm assuming that I can move the SSD to SATA 1 after the migration process is completed and boot off of that. I'll keep the old HDD in my system unformulated and unconnected until I'm sure the new SSD doesn' have infant mortality. Then I'll turn it into a second game or documents drive. Still waiting for the SSD to be delivered though.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

Other things you may notice after the clone operation: by default cloning does not copy system restore points or shadow copies so all of those will be reset. Also it isn't unheard of for cloning utilities to skip the page and hibernation files (windows will automatically recreate them during boot, but obviously this means you shouldn't attempt to clone a system that has been hibernated).

Windows *should* disable any defragmentation schedule for C: once it is on the SSD, but it never hurts to check it manually and disable it if necessary after a clone.

And finally, once you have used a SSD for your primary computer for a week or two, you will be quite thoroughly spoiled rotten and you will never be able to go back to tolerating booting from a mechanical disk again. If you ever sit down in front of a computer that still boots from a mechanical disk, you will immediately notice the slowness and quite possibly blurt out loud "what the f$%k!!?!??!??" as it takes what will feel like eternity to boot up or complete any seemingly simple task. So get used to either moving around your existing SSD or spending a bit extra on one as you build new computers. :P
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Krom wrote:Other things you may notice after the clone operation: by default cloning does not copy system restore points or shadow copies so all of those will be reset. Also it isn't unheard of for cloning utilities to skip the page and hibernation files (windows will automatically recreate them during boot, but obviously this means you shouldn't attempt to clone a system that has been hibernated).

Windows *should* disable any defragmentation schedule for C: once it is on the SSD, but it never hurts to check it manually and disable it if necessary after a clone.
I'm using Ultimate Defrag, but I don't have any schedule running, and Windows Defrag is turned off. I don't think the program is smart enough to detect an SSD. I just won't run a defrag on it, ever. I will clean up my document folder and do a defrag before cloning just to make things tidy. I'm also going to shut off restore point creation and delete all restore points before the cloning operation too. I already have hybernate totally disabled, so there should be no hibernation files at all. Never used it anyway.

As for the paging file, it's being managed by Windows at the moment. Once I'm on the SSD, what would be a good paging file size for playing games? My system RAM is 12GB. I'm also going to create a set of restore and repair disks for Windows before I start the whole process.
Krom wrote:And finally, once you have used a SSD for your primary computer for a week or two, you will be quite thoroughly spoiled rotten and you will never be able to go back to tolerating booting from a mechanical disk again. If you ever sit down in front of a computer that still boots from a mechanical disk, you will immediately notice the slowness and quite possibly blurt out loud "what the f$%k!!?!??!??" as it takes what will feel like eternity to boot up or complete any seemingly simple task. So get used to either moving around your existing SSD or spending a bit extra on one as you build new computers. :P
I'm sure I'll be quite impressed. Watching my husband's workstation blaze away at doing everything OS related is what got me started on all this. However, remember I'm only using the Intel SATA 3Gb/s ports, so I won't get as good of speed as if I were using SATA 6 Gb/s ports. Hopefully this swap will forever get rid of the dreaded "temporary account" issue I've had occur on occassion. :wink:
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Grendel »

tunnelcat wrote:I will clean up my document folder and do a defrag before cloning just to make things tidy. I'm also going to shut off restore point creation and delete all restore points before the cloning operation too. I already have hybernate totally disabled, so there should be no hibernation files at all. Never used it anyway.

As for the paging file, it's being managed by Windows at the moment. Once I'm on the SSD, what would be a good paging file size for playing games? My system RAM is 12GB. I'm also going to create a set of restore and repair disks for Windows before I start the whole process.
No need for a defrag before cloning, the Samsung software uses file copy (not imaging.) You can leave the restore point creation on, they will not be copied (The System Protection I referred to above is actually exactly that.) Once on the new disk, set the page file settings Custom Size (uncheck "Automatically manage.." 1st) to 200mb initial and 2048 Max. W/ 12GB RAM your system should not swap memory pretty much ever, no need to waste any SSD space :)
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Thanks Grendel. Now I need to find time to actually do this. I also need to do a good dust cleaning in there, so I'll combine jobs.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Tunnelcat »

WOW, what a difference in boot speed! It's absolutely great! Disk access is vastly improved as well.

A couple of questions tho. It appears System Restore was turned off during the migration, should I turn it back on to the minimum amount? Also, supposedly Windows 7 supports trim, but should I use Samsung's Magician software's trim manager instead? If Windows is running it's own trim, how can I tell if it's working?
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

Administrator command prompt:
fsutil behavior query disabledeletenotify
0 = TRIM is enabled
anything else = TRIM disabled

AS-SSD benchmark should also show you using msahci or iastor (other non-ahci drivers do not support TRIM).

You can use magician to optimize the system every now and then if you wish, odds are Windows will keep ahead of the TRIM commands but a manual optimization doesn't hurt once a week or once every couple weeks. Note, the Intel SSD Toolbox would also work and has a handy schedule it can be set to run on (the various SSD optimizers work on pretty much any SSD because what they do is basically the same regardless of what brand it is).
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Yeah, It's on. I can manually run Magician occasionally as well. What about Restore Point creation?

Also, there's one irritating UAC notification that relates to Magician. Right after I log in, a UAC prompt pops up concerning Magician just as the desktop loads. It's supposed to start with Windows and I ran all the install programs as administrator, so why is the UAC nagging me after I log in?
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

Did that UAC thing on both computers I tried it on also, its because of the way Samsung starts it with windows. Try the Intel SSD Toolbox instead, odds are it can run optimize as well and it doesn't start with windows at all.

Just turn system restore back on if it is turned off.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Ah, I found a way to stop it from starting on bootup. There was a little shortcut that I deleted. Now all I have to do is fire it up when I want to use it.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=1 ... 1040009183

Go to the Windows Startup Folder and remove the shortcut for Samsung Magician. It doesn't need to be there.

In Windows 7 and 8, the location of the Startup Folder for an individual user is:

C:\users\%username%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Startup


As for Restore Point creation, would you personally leave it on? In the Magician's OS Optimization tabs, they recommend leaving it OFF. Only in the ADVANCED tab do they think you MAY want to turn it on.

EDIT: One other question. After the migration, it seems that Windows Update doesn't think I've updated my OS. So I ran it and after a lot of downloading and hunting, it came back with those optional updates I haven't installed and no important updates, but my full update history is totally missing. Is there anyway I can restore that information? I found something about a 100MB Windows file not being cloned? I do have a recent repair disk that I made before the migration if that needs to be run.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

It is probably just the uninstall and logging information that is missing, the updates are still there and installed, new updates will show when they become available. It is probably just a limitation or deliberate omission of the samsung cloning software that skipped it in the first place. Only way to get it back is to either use a different cloning software, or don't clone at all (do a new install on the SSD, which isn't much of an option at all). Some other counters and timers might have been reset to default also, (so for instance disk defragmenter might say "never run"), doesn't mean anything other than the timer/counter was reset.

System restore is really harmless, the Samsung tool suggests disabling it because it would reduce the amount of writes to the drive and can potentially increase performance. But you have a 500 GB drive and the wear leveling will likely get at a minimum the rated 3000 program/erase cycles out of nearly all 500 GB (probably more than that), so you have a reasonable expectation of about 1.5 petabytes of writes to the drive before you would have to start worrying about endurance. For the record, I've been using the same SSD for over two years now with system restore enabled, during that time I have accumulated 2.73 TB of writes on a 160 GB drive, the remaining lifespan on the drive is STILL 100%. Keep system restore on. :P
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Tunnelcat »

Thanks Krom. I'll just sit back and enjoy my sexy new drive. The shortened boot time alone was well worth the hassle of installing it. What other things will I notice a difference in using the SSD?
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Grendel »

Yea, I don't let the magician autostart, no need for it (just delete the shortcut in the Start --> Startup folder.) I always turn System Restore back on w/ 5-10GB buffer, having a SSD doesn't mean that the system can't screw up anymore ;) And yes, the update history is gone (the updates are all still there), shouldn't really be a problem if your OS was in ok shape before the clone.

The faster boot time is the most obvious impact. Overall the system should be a lot "snappier", esp. w/ programs that work the disk.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

Other things you might notice on a SSD vs a hard drive? For instance a fast malwarebytes scan will take 30-90 seconds instead of 8-15 minutes.

Most windows (and other software) updates/installations/uninstalls take considerably less time to complete, often bordering on instant. I used to leave free applications installed after I was done using them because it took too long to install/uninstall and I didn't know when I would need it again. Now I immediately uninstall them when I'm done because it goes so quickly.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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Ooooh, I'll have to try a new anti-virus scan on this baby. It used to take a painfully LOOONG time. I'll turn on System Restore as well and I guess I'll just live with the missing update history. Thanks guys for assisting me through this thing. So far, it looks like it was a worthwhile upgrade, despite the fact my motherboard only reliably runs in AHCI mode on the Intel SATA 3Gb/s connectors. If only that stupid Marvell Controller had been SATA 6 Gb/s as advertised, I'd be even more happy. :wink:
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Tunnelcat »

To either Grendel or Krom, if either of you have got a Samsung 840 EVO. Would you suggest enabling Rapid Mode?
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

I wouldn't, potential benefits don't really outweigh the potential downsides of it, especially considering the 840 EVO 500 GB is already good enough for most workloads without it.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Grendel »

W/ your 12GB of memory I'd give it a shot.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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OK both of you. What's the upside and what's the downside?
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Grendel »

From Samsung's Rapid Mode Whitepaper:
RAPID operates at the block and file system level to analyze application and data usage and eliminates system performance bottlenecks by dynamically leveraging system DRAM as a read/write cache.
[..]
When enabled, RAPID mode is inserted as a filter driver in the Windows storage stack. The driver actively monitors all storage-related activity between and among the operating system, user applications and the SSD. The RAPID technology analyzes system traffic and leverages spare system resources (DRAM and CPU) to deliver read acceleration through intelligent caching of hot data and write optimization through tight coordination with the SSD.
[..]
RAPID was specifically designed to not add any additional risk to user or system data, even in the event of a power-loss. In fact, RAPID strictly adheres to Windows conventions in its treatment of any buffered writes in DRAM -- RAPID obeys all “flush” commands, so any writes buffered by RAPID will make it to the persistent media just like the Windows OS cache or the HDD cache. (Consequently, the data loss risk is identical to that of Windows OS cache or HDD cache).

Furthermore, RAPID mode is mindful of any changes in system behavior or resource availability, meaning that RAPID will scale back or release (and re-acquire) system resources seamlessly based on system activity and requirements. RAPID consumes at most 25% of the installed DRAM, up to a maximum of 1GB, but will scale down resource usage and eventually revert to a pass-through mode if the CPU core(s) or DRAM is occupied with other system tasks. (This technology is really designed to make use of excess system resources).
.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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I use this system mostly for gaming. What's the downside?
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Grendel »

None that I can see in that context.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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I'll see what it does then.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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One more question. I want to re-attach my old Win 7 OS 1TB spinner drive and clear it out to use as another game disk. What will happen when I boot? The OS is still on it.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

Assuming the SSD is set to first boot priority, it'll just boot from there normally.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Tunnelcat »

It is. Thanks Krom. I need more room for my burgeoning game library and another 1TB will fit the bill. I don't like to uninstall a game unless it's a really bad skunker of a game.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Tunnelcat »

I'll say one thing, Windows Update installs insanely fast with this drive. Virus scans go way faster than watching paint dry too. I'm officially spoiled Krom. :mrgreen:
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Foil »

From my own experience: You won't go back, and you'll find that working/playing on machines without SSDs just feels like drudgery. ( I went and worked on a friend's computer the other day, and it felt like every action and every boot was somehow being time-dilated...) :P
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

Yeah, once you have used a SSD you can never willingly go back to using a mechanical drive. The transition would be too painful.

Even my second computer, which is quite powerful (i7-2700k with 16 GB of RAM), feels agonizingly slow because it is stuck on a 500 GB mechanical drive. Though I use it so infrequently I should just strip the drives out of it and sell it as a bare bones... :P

I'm kinda holding out for a few innovations to hit the market, hopefully sometime this year, before I upgrade both my parents machines from their current mechanical drives to SSDs and I'll probably pick up a new one for my own machine while I'm at it. Right now picking a SSD is still a bit too much of a trade-off, the numbers the manufacturers like to say "up to 80,000 random IOPs" is only at 4 KB random with a queue depth of 32, which is pretty much a pure torture test (basically even enterprise workloads shouldn't be that hard) and not really an effective benchmark. What usually wins the general usage benchmarks is how the drive does at random 512b-4K at a queue depth of 1-4 where these drives are actually a LOT slower than the peak numbers from 4K@QD32 (but still epically faster than a mechanical HDD). This is why the Samsung 840 EVO, which only has middling to adequate performance in the torture tests still beats the Intel SSD 730 at most realistic benchmarks. The 730 reigns supreme with its performance in the torture tests where it is like 10-20x faster in its tortured state than pretty much any other drive, but is actually on the weaker side of SSDs for that small / low queue depth stuff.

Basically there are two extremes, right now the marketing is focused on the big tortured workload extreme because it has the biggest numbers and everyone likes big numbers. The other extreme is the small numbers, meaning how little time does it take you do to an equally little workload. I think SSD manufacturers are going to start paying more attention to the small end in the next few years for a couple of reasons. First, the high end is pretty much limited by the interface speed anymore, so 80,000 IOPs on SATA 6 and probably in the neighborhood of ~120,000 on SATAe/PCie x2, once you hit that there really is nowhere else to go but down. And second, getting the low queue depth stuff done faster so the drive can then go into a lower power state is getting increasingly important as more and more people are switching to laptops or tablets or other mobile devices which benefit from having a drive that doesn't run down the battery any more then absolutely necessary.
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Tunnelcat
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Tunnelcat »

Hey Krom, is there a way to tell 2 identical HDD's apart in the BIOS? They're both 1TB Western Digital HDD's. I'd like to make sure the old OS C: drive doesn't end up as D: once I boot into Windows. I want to make sure it's set as the last sequential drive while I'm still setting up things in the BIOS. My D: drive is my current game drive and I what it to stay that way.
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Foil »

When one of two identical WD drives failed on me in a RAID a while back, I was able to tell them apart by serial # (the BIOS should list the full number, I just paid attention to the last couple digits).
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

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How far down in what sub-entry are the numbers listed? I've saw under the Boot Tab something like this before I switched to AHCI and disconnected one the old HDD:

Hard Disk Drives

1st Drive [IDE : S0 WDC WD1002F]
2nd Drive [IDE : S1 WDC WD1002F]
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Re: SSD OS Migration question

Post by Krom »

In the somewhat unlikely scenario your D: drive did change letters, you could change it back in ~10 seconds with disk management (no reboots required even).
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