To Bettina: About offensive audio taunts.

[will_kill]

I should just say this thread is really looking up...u people are some truly intelligent individuals with whom I'm more than happy and proud to say I know...(well, on here anyway ).

[Red Barchetta]

how bout this...

letting your kid play with taunts turned on when you know the game is laden with f-bombs is bad parenting. period.

Are you a parent? There are plenty of effective taunts that can be played. Is it bad that she enjoys the non profanity laiden ones? Is it bad that she likes to use some cute ones herself? You play the game the way you like to, why cant she? Do your rights to free speach have to trample all over hers?

if you think this is ANYONE's problem but your own you should not have had a child in the first place.

I never said it was a problem, please re-read my post. I am only making a request, and stating that if people do not wish to honor the request, we will leave the game, go to another. Do not be offended if I/we do so.

the allowance for adult rated taunts is built into the game. that makes it an adult game while tuants are on. turning taunts off fixes the problem.

Or leaving the current game. Options, options... Yes, this is an adult game, and not real life, and I am glad you have the freedom to say what you want. But Game, or Real life, I personally dont care for excessive use in either.

oh and Barchetta, nice job jumping on the "i'm too cool for cursing" band wagon.

I never said I was, you are making that comment. I just dont do it, its the way I was brought up, and the enviroment that I work in. Its just not part of my life style. Nor is it the way my duaghter is being raised. She is in the 4th grade this year, and has been in the gifted program for 3 of those school years. I dont think that spouting profanities in class would be proper, nor would it be a proper enviroment for her to be in if others were doing it.

I can understand not wanting to expose virgin ears of a young child to a vulgar vocabulary, but i see Bettina as doing nothing but attention seeking.

As I recall, she did not start this whole thing. Dosent sound like she is the one seeking attention.

You've heard the words before. Tune them out or turn them off.

Yes, I have, and I have many options open to me. I choose not to be around people that constantly curse, so again, please excuse me if I/we leave a game that has them used.

[Red Barchetta]

i respect his point of view. i respect his preference. i think it is logical to not want your child exposed to vulgarity. i applaud the choice. but there is no logic in imposing sanctions on the rest of us, whether real or moral.

What sanctions am I imposing on the rest of you? I made a statement, a request for those that may want to join my daughter and I in a game. If that request is not honored, I/we have the option to leave the game. No skin off your nose, right?

[Duper]

...and you guys wonder where everyone one went.

[TheCope]

...and you guys wonder where everyone one went.

Oh c'mon.
It has nothing to do with playing the same game over and over until the end of time. It was the audio taunts and 'lack of community'.

[will_kill]

I'm telling you...everyone is afraid of this game! Thats where they went...to find a game that does'nt require 5 years of playing to reach the pinnacle. bah! lazy mo'uggahs! Let 'em have their auto pilot sims and their too fast shooters...I'll stay right here till D4 comes out.And then play that 'til D5 hits the shelves!Hell, I'm only 40


dang! off topic... again! <shakes head>
So, to get back on topic... just respect someones wishes omg how hard is it to be nice, really? If an old grouch like me can be nice to someone I have'nt met in RL then I know you well educated,fine mannered people can. Rememeber what its called? A GAME!

[Robo]

Why hasn't this thread died yet?

[Sirius]

Arguing on the Internet is just too compelling for that.

[Nosferatu]

BTW, I just would like to correct something I saw earlier in the thread.

One thing that makes me mader then anything else is someone trying to change the meaning of a word, just to fit their political agenda or win an argument.

The word is censor.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/censor?view=uk

It does not matter who is doing it. It does not matter if the individual has some legal power. If there is content that is unacceptable and it is being removed, its being censored. It does not matter if the individual that is producing the content themselves, is voluntarilly removing it. It is still censorship.

Anyway Im now done with this thread. Ive expressed my feelings. Suffice it to say there is little chance of anyones argument changing those feelings.

[Testiculese]

I'm curious why Red and Bett are 'leaving the game' because of a few bad taunts. Just turn them off until the taunter leaves, then turn them back on again.. This isn't complicated enough for 4 pages.

[Bet51987]

I'm curious why Red and Bett are 'leaving the game' because of a few bad taunts. Just turn them off until the taunter leaves, then turn them back on again.. This isn't complicated enough for 4 pages.

Just to answer your question, and this is not directed at you, Its both a matter of prinicple, and because I like listening to the good, clean, funny, clever, and even obnoxious tuants that enhance my game experience.

Some of them make me smash my mouse down on my desk like the one that goes... "Somebody just stepped on yo grave".... that I would have to miss because of a few wienies who feel there rights are being violated because they can't use the fword even when kids are playing.

Leaving the game when they come in works well for me, and I know others follow that procedure too.
BTW...Last night I had a great time with my friends.

"Leave out cuss words, everyone can play."
"Leave them in, and not all can play."

Funny thing about logic....Unfortunately it hasn't helped the poster above you.

Bettina

[Pandora]

I think you might be referring to me:

One thing that makes me mader then anything else is someone trying to change the meaning of a word, just to fit their political agenda or win an argument.

The word is censor.

No, the word you used was 'censorship'. Here is what Wikipedia has to say on it: "Censorship is the use of governmental power to control speech and other forms of human expression..."
No government involved, it's just Bettina. And she certainly has no power to control your speach. She can just ask nicely, and if she's lucky you will accomodate her request. So... no censorship.
I'm just higlighting this, because many here seem to think that just because somebody wants you not to use these taunts when they are around that he is imposing his morality on someone else. No ... he just asks you to respect his morality. It's no great loss for you but a great gain for the other person. Why the need for being so defensive and hostile? It's supposed to be a community after all. And nobody challenges your right to use swear words with other person you play with...

[Trackball]

Why is this thread such a big deal...?

[Gooberman]

somethin' to do.

[Palzon]

I think you might be referring to me:

One thing that makes me mader then anything else is someone trying to change the meaning of a word, just to fit their political agenda or win an argument.

The word is censor.

No, the word you used was 'censorship'. Here is what Wikipedia has to say on it: "Censorship is the use of governmental power to control speech and other forms of human expression..."

No government involved, it's just Bettina. And she certainly has no power to control your speach. She can just ask nicely, and if she's lucky you will accomodate her request. So... no censorship.

aside from the fact that you don't bother to address my points, you have proved nosferatu's points. wikipedia has much more to say about censorship than you posted, which is precisely what irked him in the first place. you define the time narrowly to suit your purposes.

the point is not to focus on the single word he used but on his intent based on the context in which he used the word. he was trying to say that he didn't want his expression limited. don't obfuscate his point with some semantic hocus pocus.

i would like to ask that people address how me limiting my speech is a better solution than someone who is offended turning the taunts off? why isn't the respectful, decent thing to do for the moralist to use the recourse with which they are clearly endowed; a mute button?

further, what about my point that leveling differences is an assault on expression, and further, that it sanitizes the experience to a point that it is fundamentally altered?

[Bet51987]

(taken out of context)
i would like to ask that people address how me limiting my speech is a better solution than someone who is offended turning the taunts off? why isn't the respectful, decent thing to do for the moralist to use the recourse with which they are clearly endowed; a mute button?

Ok....Since you asked...I will address it. First, nothing personal ...Secondly I gave you the reasons for keeping my taunts on, in my post above. And...the "respectul, descent thing to do" would be not to use the fword when you don't know who the players are or are asked not to in a nice way. For someone who writes intellegently, you make me wonder where your coming from.

Do you use the fword in front of kids?...in front of girls you have never met?....the girl at the take out window?....the teller at the bank?....I bet you don't. Why, because its not the "respectul, descent thing to do" So...why do you think it is acceptable here.

further, what about my point that leveling differences is an assault on expression, and further, that it sanitizes the experience to a point that it is fundamentally altered?

I take it that you mean not using the fword is sanatizing the experience? That the game would be altered in such a way as to be unplayable? That one word?....
Is this what you are saying?

Bettina

[Zero!]

bettina there is a filter profanity option in the pilots menu. enable that and all u will see is *##@ instead of the f word.

[World War Woodi]

Lol @ Zero, Dude ! It's about audio taunts not text !


Anyway since everyone is chiming in, whatever.

I do use the fword in front of my kids and women I dont know and at work, in fact cussing is like adding emotion or emphasis to what Im trying to say to someone. In fact, that word in particular is my personal favorite because it is so transitive and can be used in so many ways. It really depends on how someones takes it, you can replace the word "like" in any teenagers conversation with that word and viola', it's only offensive if you make it that way !

Do I let my kids say it ? NOPE !
It shows disrespect to me if they do, an I aint havin that. But I dont shield them from reality, people use that word in particular allllllll the time. They are going to hear it. It's there, and it is what it is, form your own opinion of it, is what I tell them.

Now let me say this, you asked me once Bettina to please not use the taunt with the fword in it, and I was happy to comply, I do not have an issue with not using a taunt that contains that word when someone nicely askes me not to. Im pretty surprised people are taking such issue with it as a matter of fact.

Then again Bett, its no reason to leave a game if someone wont, just turn it off dear ! You have the power !

Thats it !

[will_kill]

Woodi! Hey bro', I think it has more to do with her dad not wanting her exposed to that sort of gameplay...he's prolly like "Ok, you can play your silly online game but I don't want to see or hear that 'f' word"... <shrugs> correct me if I'm wrong Bett'

[Sirius]

No ... he just asks you to respect his morality. It's no great loss for you but a great gain for the other person. Why the need for being so defensive and hostile? It's supposed to be a community after all.

I get the increasing feeling from the community at large that they are now too cool to have any respect for others.

[Pandora]

aside from the fact that you don't bother to address my points, you have proved nosferatu's points. wikipedia has much more to say about censorship than you posted, which is precisely what irked him in the first place. you define the time narrowly to suit your purposes.

What was missing from the definition that would prove his point? I just looked at the Wikipedia definition and could not find anything. This is the definition i meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

the point is not to focus on the single word he used but on his intent based on the context in which he used the word. he was trying to say that he didn't want his expression limited. don't obfuscate his point with some semantic hocus pocus.

I have not obfuscated his point. I think he has obfuscated his own point. To call something "censorship" implies that the person doing the request has the power to limit his expression, like governments or media organs do. But single persons clearly do not. Even if asked not to use a certain taunt, he is not required to do so: he can still chose to play them without facing some adverse consequences.
Maybe were speaking on cross purposes here. As I read the thread, nobody asked for a complete banning of certain taunts. If this was the case I would stand firmly on your and Nosferatus side. But all it is about is whether someone can make requests that other people may or may not honor. What irked me was (1) that someone makes a complete thread because someone simply asks him for something.

i would like to ask that people address how me limiting my speech is a better solution than someone who is offended turning the taunts off? why isn't the respectful, decent thing to do for the moralist to use the recourse with which they are clearly endowed; a mute button?

further, what about my point that leveling differences is an assault on expression, and further, that it sanitizes the experience to a point that it is fundamentally altered?

I think both are possibilities, and which is finally chosen should be sorted by communication, on a single situation basis. Why do have to make up a fit-all rule - the "better solution" - for something that can also be sorted out between two persons? As Bettina already said: if it is so important for Nosferatu to play these taunts, he can still do so. Other people's play experience may not depend so much on playing offensive taunts, and they will gladly not play them to accomodate Bettina. What's the problem here?

To reiterate, I would agree with both of your points if somebody wanted a complete ban of "offensive" taunts. But I have no problems with somebody asking me not to play them in one single game.

[Nosferatu]

I have not obfuscated his point. I think he has obfuscated his own point. To call something "censorship" implies that the person doing the request has the power to limit his expression, like governments or media organs do. But single persons clearly do not. Even if asked not to use a certain taunt, he is not required to do so: he can still chose to play them without facing some adverse consequences.

What has me ticked off is that I have seen that definition before and its wrong. Its an intentional redefining of the word so as not to appear as though someone is censoring.

Censor

NOUN: 1. The act, process, or practice of censoring. 2. The office or authority of a Roman censor. 3. Psychology Prevention of disturbing or painful thoughts or feelings from reaching consciousness except in a disguised form.

NOTE: Entry number 1.

Censorship

1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable. 2. An official, as in the armed forces, who examines personal mail and official dispatches to remove information considered secret or a risk to security. 3. One that condemns or censures. 4. One of two officials in ancient Rome responsible for taking the public census and supervising public behavior and morals. 5. Psychology The agent in the unconscious that is responsible for censorship.

NOTE: Entry number 3

Censor
noun (plural cen·sors)
Definitions:

1. official removing objectionable material: an official who examines plays, movies, letters, or publications with a view to removing or banning content considered to be offensive or a threat to security

2. somebody who suppresses something: somebody or something that suppresses or controls something that may offend or harm others

3. ancient Roman official: in ancient Rome, either of two elected magistrates who were responsible for holding censuses, overseeing public morals, and controlling aspects of finance and taxation

4. psychiatry inhibiting force in mind: in psychology, a mechanism believed to be responsible for what can and cannot emerge from the subconscious to the conscious mind. It is thought to prevent harmful memories, ideas, and desires from reaching the conscious level.

NOTE: Entry number 2

cen·sor·ship


noun
Definitions:

1. suppression of published or broadcast material: the suppression of all or part of a play, movie, letter, or publication considered offensive or a threat to security

2. suppression of something objectionable: the suppression or attempted suppression of something regarded as objectionable

3. ancient Roman office: the office, authority, or term of an ancient Roman censor

4. psychiatry suppression of memories: the suppression of potentially harmful memories, ideas, or desires from the conscious mind

NOTE: Entry number 2

The notion that censoring and censorship requires legal athority before you can use those words, ticks me off to no end.

[Kiran]

[quote="Bet51987]Ok....Since you asked...I will address it. First, nothing personal ...Secondly I gave you the reasons for keeping my taunts on, in my post above. And...the "respectul, DESCENT thing to do" would be not to use the fword when you don't know who the players are or are asked not to in a nice way. For someone who writes intellegently, you make me wonder where your coming from.

Do you use the fword in front of kids?...in front of girls you have never met?....the girl at the take out window?....the teller at the bank?....I bet you don't. Why, because its not the "respectul, DESCENT thing to do" So...why do you think it is acceptable here.
[/quote]

Bettina... you play too much Descent.

[WarAdvocat]

I believe you have a decent grasp of the situation, Kiran.

[Clayman]

Personally, I find nothing wrong with "filthy language." Words are in essence just letters rearranged to form thoughts to communicate with other intelligent beings. They only seem "harmful" when they take on societal connotations or perceived attitudes or threats. However, I generally prefer to abstain from using taunts with language in them in public servers, because I know they bother some people. But then again, what do I know, it would take a very strong request to cease and desist for me to stop using "potentially offensive" taunts I've made with blast beat and machine gun drumming, ridiculously heavy and distorted guitars, and brutal, gutteral vocals. "Offense" is in the ears of the listener.

[Ned]

Bettina, Its not that we donâ??t like you. We both appreciate that you are a fairly skilled pilot.

Wrong, she's an awesome pilot.

She has asked politely so she can turn up her speakers, enjoy the game to it's fullest and not be mortified when "@#$@#&^% piece of &^%&#%$" comes out of the speakers. Would you like to be a young person playing a cool game in front of your parents when suddenly that stuff comes out? And how much hardship is there just to not do it? She wants to be a part of multi games without raunchiness.

Is it censorship that it's not acceptable to walk around naked around your grandmother, picking your nose and farting? Of course not, it's being courteous of people's comfort level. I think people should try to work with Bettinas comfort level, not crap on it. She would do that same for you. If someone forgets, she can hit disconect and try it again another day, as she sometimes does.

People could also host specific games, like "Roadkill, no profanity." It might be a good idea as many young people don't need the embarrasement of that stuff coming over online.

Bettina yout taunt "Im gonna to kiwll U" is great! There is nothing offensive. It's a joke in a space SHOOTER game. . .

[Palzon]

People could also host specific games, like "Roadkill, no profanity." It might be a good idea as many young people don't need the embarrasement of that stuff coming over online.

Maybe it will be a good idea when you suggest it

[Pun]

I have a 9 year old son that plays. His machine has audio taunts off and the profanity filter on. Still, sometimes things slip through, but we've talked about it and he realizes they're just words and they aren't appropriate for kids to use. We've talked about the fact that some adults like to use foul language, but that doesn't meant it's the right thing to do.

[Nosferatu]

[TechPro]

I'm gonna side with Bettina.

The use of profanity of ANY form in an audio taunt is NOT COOL in ANY place where the ages of others and their personal preferences and beliefs are NOT known to everyone.

Having said that, flame all you want.

Bett, I know you've wanted to play against me and/or Scyphi sometime... we've just not gotten around to it. I haven't played online in what seems months and he's working on his skills more before he hops online.

Expect that one of these times we'll be happily destroyed in the Descent online gaming.

[[RIP]Gallows]

So, she politely asks for the F bomb not to be used? Whats the big deal? Can you just bag the F word taunt anyway? The best taunts are the ones that aren't so vulgar. Why do you need that crap anyway? I mean you're free to do it if you want, but when someone respectfully asks for you to not play it, try and return that respect.

If she asks nicely and respectfully, you should not play it out of respect. How do you know another pilot in the game isn't some 14 year old who is just learning? If his parents get a wind of that, well its bye bye new pilot and hello no more d3.

Bettina is right, until she turns 18 it's her dads rules. Actually, until she moves out of her dad's house it'll be his rules. This may be the case with more pilots than just her so lets curb the anti-family atmosphere.

One of the things that made the descent series so great was the absence of blood, gore, violence, and mature material. A parent is likely to allow their child to play this game because of this. Without new blood, this game will end and none of us want that.

Save the cussing for your private teamspeak or ventrillo friends. Its real easy. So simple, in fact, that you're garranteed to never have to deal with flak about your taunt again.

It is easier not to play that kind of taunt than it is to deal with the controversy from playing that kind of taunt.

[will_kill]

Gallows is right...when I came into this community I was so graciously received I was amazed. You guys(all) impressed upon me a sense of community I have not seen since I've been outta'...errm well uhmm I mean it just totally reminded me of a tight nit family . I saw friendly flamin' and downright knockouts...but I also saw a constant: No matter what the "sitch'"[KimPossible ] I would always feel that 'bond'. I still feel it and see it...but this thing you guys got goin'..heheh, well it sounds like a family squabble ..."I can't take you kids anywhere!"
"Nos'!!Quit tormentin' your sister young man! Let her play that way and come curse me all the **** you want!"

[Nosferatu]

No. I still dont think you understand. On 4 or 5 occasions, I was having a great game. I had 2 of my 4 taunts set as a good F word taunt and I was happilly using them and others were even giving me compliments and giving me LOLs from it. Then allong comes Bettina. And of course as soon as I use one of my taunts I get "Please stop using that taunt" from her. And of course she goes right on using "Im going to kill you" and "*KISS*" and that annoying little girl giggle, with impunity.

This is more a case of the annoying little girl trying to bully around her big brother with "Im gonna tell".

Well Im sorry but no one bullies me around.

I'll adhear to ServOps wishes if I hear that they dont want profanity running over their servers. That I can understand, in that they wish to make the server available to underage individuals. But if its allowed, Im using them.

I will not be the big brother held hostage by, "Im gonna tell mommy" or a white anglosakson protestant male bullied out of a job by affirmative action.

Im sorry if this is not very politically correct. When ever I hear any PC speak my hair just bristles. And this topic has made me just as mad and as fed up as everyone else. (Yes I know I started it)

Now Bettina, before you get real angry about my description of the above, I hope you at least think about it. I quite honestly felt like you were trying to do just that, in the games we played. I felt an (attempted) "little sister" stile bulling going on.

Anyway, one more time. I'll consent to censoring myself if others consent to censoring themselves as well, and not before that.

And kindly STFU about self censorship is not censorship.

[Gooberman]

heh

[Palzon]

well we've gone from hostile to friendly and full circle back to hostile again.

i don't know folks. profane taunts do not exactly equal second-hand smoke. i respect those who filter em or leave without complaint. THAT is taking responsibility for your own morality or preference.

the ability to make any FREE speech taunt you wish is built into the game - same as the ability to filter it out. Most posters here haven't even attempted to address the objections i've personally made.

if you read my posts i've never said anywhere that i wouldn't refrain from using them if asked. but i would prefer that person remain in the game and filter taunts. after that, i'd prefer that person leave the game.

considering that free taunt speech is built-in, as is the filter...

the whole thing is akin to buying floor seats at a Metallica concert when you could have sat in the balcony - and then telling those around you that you find their head-banging offensive - and would they mind not doing it...

it's not totally unreasonable, but it is placing responsibility that is yours upon someone else. it's not necessary. and it's a total buzzkill.

and one more thing, to all of you who come down on the goody-two-shoes side of this...

throw out your george carlin, your eddie murphy, your bill hicks, richard pryor, , chris rock, dave chappelle, john stewart, adam carrola, dennis leary, even robin williams, etc. just to name a few. Not to mention countless movies with adult language.

that leaves you with who, Bob Saget maybe?

It's not the word, it's the context that matters. if its funny, it's funny, f-bomb or not.

just to up my popularity ante even further since i'm on a roll here...

several hundred more teenagers will not revive this game. d3 is not dead but it is passé. it will never be what it was again, but we can still have fun with what's left. i would rather see this community dwindle to nothing but the great players remaining than see an influx of people who want to fix something that aint broken.

barchetta has done just fine here, apparently for years, doing it his way without making it an issue for others.

i'm sorry, but my comments regarding him were misconstrued. the only part of the post even directed at him was the "too cool" line and that was meant in a totally tongue-in-cheek manner that was lost via the interweb.

folks, i'm NOT gonna shove an offensive taunt down someone's throat. but if the headbangers are bothering me, i move away, i don't ask them to stop enjoying Metallica their way.

edit: lest there be any confusion...

i have no personal problem with anyone in this thread. i try to have a sense of humor about playin a game. i hope u all see the humor to this situation. don't imagine my tone to be mean-spirited.

cheers

[Palzon]

dbl love at ya

[will_kill]

Palzon
DBB Admiral
Posted Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:52 pm
"well we've gone from hostile to friendly and full circle back to hostile again".


...and I'm waiting on everyone to kiss and make up

[Kiran]

Anyway Im now done with this thread. Ive expressed my feelings. Suffice it to say there is little chance of anyones argument changing those feelings.

Then be done already

Come on, don't be offended by a girl who's using harmless audio taunts. After all, if you're so offended by her audio taunts, just do the same thing she did with you: Ask politely to not use it.

What a funny thread this turned out to be

[pipsqueak10]

Okay Palzon, now you've crossed the line. Ya just had to bring Bob Saget into this!

[Bet51987]

No. I still dont think you understand. On 4 or 5 occasions, I was having a great game. I had 2 of my 4 taunts set as a good F word taunt and I was happilly using them and others were even giving me compliments and giving me LOLs from it. Then allong comes Bettina. And of course as soon as I use one of my taunts I get "Please stop using that taunt" from her. And of course she goes right on using "Im going to kill you" and "*KISS*" and that annoying little girl giggle, with impunity.

This is more a case of the annoying little girl trying to bully around her big brother with "Im gonna tell".

Well Im sorry but no one bullies me around.

I'll adhear to ServOps wishes if I hear that they dont want profanity running over their servers. That I can understand, in that they wish to make the server available to underage individuals. But if its allowed, Im using them.

I will not be the big brother held hostage by, "Im gonna tell mommy" or a white anglosakson protestant male bullied out of a job by affirmative action.

Im sorry if this is not very politically correct. When ever I hear any PC speak my hair just bristles. And this topic has made me just as mad and as fed up as everyone else. (Yes I know I started it)

Now Bettina, before you get real angry about my description of the above, I hope you at least think about it. I quite honestly felt like you were trying to do just that, in the games we played. I felt an (attempted) "little sister" stile bulling going on.

Anyway, one more time. I'll consent to censoring myself if others consent to censoring themselves as well, and not before that.

And kindly STFU about self censorship is not censorship.

Why are you continuing with this? Geez, if your considering this a debate against "right and wrong", then you've won. I didn't realize you were so insecure and I hope you feel better now. I'm no longer going to try to convince people to protect their game, and I still operate like I always have. I ask nicely, and If the fword continues, I leave. In some cases, I leave immediately without comment. There is more than one game being played and I don't have a problem leaving, so there is no longer a "problem".

You may be happy to know that this thread you made has caused me nothing but grief and last night I noticed a "coldness" in some of the players that I've been playing with for a long time and it makes me depressed. Anyway, you and people like you are not going to change or convince me that your [expletive] is the same as my [giggle] taunt, so please drop the sympathetic approach to drum up support. You don't need to anymore.

Though I don't have a "mommy", this no longer has anything to do with "daddy" either even though his rules still apply, because I would do them anyway. So, you can use the fwords if you wish and receive all your "compliments and lols" like you described. But...rest assured that you and your friends, haven't made one dent in my moral character. Not one.

Bettina