Training mode with limited axes of movement.

[Kilarin]

This is a repost of something I put over on the core decision forums. I wanted to get some responses to it over here since we have an official core decision forum now.
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It seems to me that Descent Multiplayer has two main problems.

1: STEEP learning curve.
2: Newbies can't compete and get discouraged before they overcome number 1.

Your solution to this is:

Core Decision multiplayer runs off of a tier-based difficulty system. The highest difficulty setting, Leet, has all axes enabled, whereas the lower difficulty settings have various levels of movement restrictions. If you play on a newbie server you only have to worry about 3 axes. If a 6DOF veteran joins that same server, he will be subject to the same restrictions. The playing field thereby automatically evens itself out.

Two humbly submitted observations:
First, I'm not certain that newbies playing with restricted axes will actually learn the skill needed to graduate up to full 6DOF play.

Second, I think skilled players will absolutely refuse to join games with limited axes. NOT because they are afraid it will give them a disadvantage, but because it won't be \"FUN\". They play for 6DOF and nothing else is going to do. And in my opinion, if you don't have the veterans and the newbies mixing, the newbies never learn the necessary skills and tricks to graduate to the next level of play.

I would like to propose an alternative for your consideration. A \"Handicapped\" play mode, where weapons available are limited by ranking within that game. The player with the fewest kills can pick up and use any primary and secondary available. As players move up in ranking, their list of restricted weapons starts to grow, until you reach the player with the most kills, who is limited to super lasers and concussion missiles.

I think veterans could be attracted to these games. Blasting newbies to smithereens would be more FUN if the newbies are heavily armed. AND, the ego boost should be a big draw. If you can get to the top kill rating and STAY there in a handicapped game, you KNOW you are good, and so does everyone else. Smile

Newbies would still be outclassed (since skill is really much more important than weapons in a game like Descent), but they wouldn't be as likely to get discouraged and quit because carrying around a mega missile or omega cannon means they are likely to at least get the occasional kill. And if the best opponents in the game can only shoot you with weaker weapons, you have more time to figure out just what they heck they are doing to you, and to LEARN from it.

And learning is exactly what I think this \"handicapped\" game mode would be BEST at. The less talented players get a chance to practice in full 6DOF mode, and as they improve, the rules of the game force them to work harder and watch the veterans closely so that they can learn new skills. Until, eventually, they feel confident enough to move out into other non-handicapped game modes.

The most serious flaw I see in this mode of play would be the necessity of building in some incentive to keep a high ranking player from just dropping out of the game and rejoining in order to drop their rank and get more weapons. I HOPE that competing for a high score would be enough to discourage this. It might also be possible to add some kind of scoring delay for new players joining an in progress game.

Also, it may be that most players would reject any game mode that forces them to play with weaker weapons than their opponent, even if the game offers a better chalenge.

I freely acknowledge that you people have put a lot more time and research into this than I have, and that this concept may have already been addressed and rejected. So, I merely present the idea for your consideration.

Thank you for listening!

[MD-2389]

Personally, I don't like the idea of a \"trainer mode\" having limited axis. Limit the weapon strength and enemy AI, but don't mess with the movement. You won't learn anything if you can't effectively dodge weapons fire. Full 6DOF gives them atleast a chance to dodge incoming fire. They're going to have to learn how to handle it sometime. Might as well let them get used to the movment at the start.

[Nosferatu]

Let me add that the learning curve is not as steep as some think.

At least in my experience, I have seen my nephew Jimmy, who currently flys as crisis, come a long way in just a couple months. Hes actually getting scarey with the mass driver. Hes only 13 YO.

Im one of those pilots that will not join in, in a limited axes game, piriod.

[zbriggs]

Not to rain on your parade but its like this. The training tiers are for new players that have never played Descent. This game is designed to not only continue this community but rebuild it.

Second, you don't have to join a lower tier server if you don't want to, I.E. the newbies don't have to either.

Third, they will still learn the needed skills to compete, the first Descent players didn't learn them like the Force, with some pot induced hallucination of Obi Won telling them to focus.

People learn the skills on there own. None of the games come with a \"How to Kill Your Oponent in 21 Days\" book.

I learned to play both ground pounders and 6DOF games on my own when the internet wasn't readily available. We had LANs and direct dialing into each other. But when I did get to play online no one could touch me. I also posessed unique stills that no one else did as a result.

As for someone's 13 year old. Yes, of course, the game plays best for the ages of 10 and 20. It's the people outside that range we are trying to get to play. The biggest problem in trial tests was that the person got disoriented and as a result, ill. The limited mode allows them to learn each axis one by one until ready to learn proper battle tactics.

Please remember that a lot of these people may not have ever seen 6DoF. They are buying the game because it looks fun and it has a good rating, or maybe even Jonny down the street or Bob from the office said they should.

You must remember that this game is about more than the 500 remaining members of the Descent community. It's about bring in new members and increasing and community.

Also, you need to think through your polls before posting. The above poll isn't accurate because it does not ask the right questions and the text is not unbias. Also, the poll implies that you would be made to play in these modes. This is not the case. We held a poll about this a long time ago before having market tests done and got positive feedback from both community members and non-community members.

Thank You,
Zachary Briggs, Executive Producer
HighOctane Software
(866)328-1886

[Kilarin]

The above poll isn't accurate because it does not ask the right questions and the text is not unbias.

Actually, I realized afterwards that it needed another question on the positive side between "I'm not sure," and "Certainly!". Unfortunantly, I can't EDIT the darn thing.

the poll implies that you would be made to play in these modes.

I certainly didn't MEAN to imply that. I was looking to see if experianced players would be willing to play in these limited axes games, because in my opinion you need to mix experianced players with the new to get a good MP community going.

Not to rain on your parade but its like this.

Quite the opposite. I'm rooting for you guys to WIN. And BIG. I really hope that Core Decision is a FANTASTIC success. So I'm hoping you are right and the limited axes will help introduce ground pounders to 6DOF gradually. I just still have the same questions about whether or not it will work.

So far the poll has only gotten 10 votes, not exactly a huge market factor there. So I understand why you would be a LOT more interested in the opinion of ground pounders than old descent players. And, quite frankly, I'll have to agree with you. Give the old descent community a game only it likes, and we are not much better off than we currently are. BUT, if you can actually bring a large crowd of NEW players, then our old community gets new blood and a new lease on life.

You said you had already done a poll about this, I assume that when you get to the beta testing field you will also be doing some MP testing with Ground Pounders in this mode. The results THERE are what will matter. IF limited axes play will get ground pounders to gradually work up to full 6DOF without abandoning the game in frustration, then I'm all for it. *IF*

So I'm hoping I'm wrong and you are right. I'm excited about Core Decision and I want to see it succeed.

[Nosferatu]

I read through that very carefully zbriggs, and yes I do understand your reasoning.

In my opinion your heading into creating a huge division. (i.e. those who will play only in upper tiers and never touch lower tiers and those who play in lower tiers and never touch upper tiers)

Again this started with a post I made over in \"For the D3 Developers\" (meaning the current descnetbb.net thread). Because of this issue, Im going to be a D3 player, (possibly for years) even after you release CD.

And I still think the D3 code should be made public so that an effort like Diedels can go ahead for D3.

[zbriggs]

I'm sorry that you feel this way but it is also a logical thought that those people would have quit instead of continuing to play.

Additionally, the game will recommend that they move up in level when it feels they have mastered it.

[Kilarin]

the game will recommend that they move up in level when it feels they have mastered it.

That's a nice touch!

I've asked one of the moderators of this forum to add a question to the poll to make it more "ballanced". I don't know if they CAN or not, but I've asked.

[zbriggs]

I thought so too. No one likes to be called a n00b forever.

Zach

[Nosferatu]

I'm sorry that you feel this way but it is also a logical thought that those people would have quit instead of continuing to play.

Additionally, the game will recommend that they move up in level when it feels they have mastered it.

Sorry that Im going to continue to play Descent 3?

Thats quite an attitude. You can only play our game and no other game.

Ya ya, I know thats not what you ment but I had to give you a dig anyway

Anyway, I DID NOT say I wouldnt play your game. I said that Ill still be playing Descent 3 because of things I dont like in CD.

[zbriggs]

I think that you need to wait and see Core Decision before making these conclusions.

Zach

[TigerRaptor]

I've asked one of the moderators of this forum to add a question to the poll to make it more "ballanced". I don't know if they CAN or not, but I've asked.

Done.


But I still voted no.

[Lothar]

I'm not certain this is the right group to ask. In fact, I'm certain this is the WRONG group to ask.

Why would any of us play a game with limited axes? Put us into a new 6dof game and we'll just configure our controls like Descent and start playing with all 6 axes. We might have a bit of a learning curve for any new control systems you have, but none of us will need a trainer mode for the 6dof part of the game, because that's the part we've all already mastered.

I think a good method of training is to start with levels that can mostly be navigated using the sort of controls people are already used to, and then slowly introduce more open space and areas where other axes will be more necessary. Most FPS gamers already use 4.5 dof (jump/crouch and climbing ladders is a limited form of slide up/down) so if you introduce the last pair slowly people will sort of ease into them.

[zbriggs]

Why would any of us play a game with limited axes? Put us into a new 6dof game and we'll just configure our controls like Descent and start playing with all 6 axes.

Like I said, you can do exactly what you said. Jump in, configure it to the settings you are used to, and play. Think of the limitations as optional. You have to remember, you are all very well versed in this kind of moment, but physical, on-site, in-person tests have found that this is the best way to start a new user off that has had no prior experience with this.


Additionally, adding another option doesn't change the nature of the quesiton. The question needs to be rephrased to,
"Do you think that a limited axis, optional training mode would help people learn that have never used a 6DoF game?"

Another problem is if you change the options or the question at this point it invalidates the poll. You will need to clear it completely and then change it.

Zach

[Zero!]

i think there should be a simple single player trainer, like the one in d3(making bots might help). putting ristrictions on it will just seperate leets and noobies imo. the noobies will stay in thier little training restricted servers while the big boys duke it out in the normal ones. and i pretty sure i wouldnt play in them, unless i was curious and wanted to try it out for once.

[Hattrick]

the first Descent players didn't learn them like the Force, with some pot induced hallucination of Obi Won telling them to focus.

Excuse me, but that's exactly how I learned Descent!

Actually I agree with Zero on this. a training mode like the one descent had was all one really needs to get their wings under them. It teaches the different axis of movement and gives you tasks to put them to use.
There can be levels designed to hone their skills with missle bays and robots.
after learning the skills and getting to be a little comfortable with them it really is best to have higher skilled opponents to fly against to sharpen their newly learned skills.

Just my 1/3 cent. -Hat

[MD-2389]

Additionally, the game will recommend that they move up in level when it feels they have mastered it.

Will the game base this off of kill/death/suicide percentage?

Also, instead of limiting the axis in the games, what about having a training simulator (ala Freespace2 and Descent3) instructing them how to move around, use the hud, how to switch weapons, etc.

I'm not bashing you guys for coming up with that idea. I'm not thrilled about limited axis either. However, I'll still buy the game and play it to the best of my ability.

[Kilarin]

I've asked one of the moderators of this forum to add a question to the poll to make it more "ballanced".

Done.

Thank you very much!

if you change the options or the question at this point it invalidates the poll. You will need to clear it completely and then change it.

There are 2 votes at "I'm not sure" level that MIGHT have gone to the new "Probably will" level. It does reduce the accuracy of the poll by a small amount, but not by that much.

adding another option doesn't change the nature of the question. The question needs to be rephrased to, "Do you think that a limited axis, optional training mode would help people learn that have never used a 6DoF game?"

It's a good question, but, that wasn't the question I wanted to ask first.

I have two issues with the reduced axis MP game.
The FIRST question is the one I asked. Will experienced players play in a reduced axis game?
I don't think GOOD players will be willing to play in the reduced axis game. And I don't mean just old Descent players, I mean new players, once they start mastering CD, will move on to the next level, and you've stated that the program encourages them to do so. And, of course, any player who makes it through the SP game will probably not want to play MP with reduced axis.

This means that the beginning players will NOT be exposed to the really good players. In my uneducated opinion, that kind of stratification, the newbies playing on one tier and the experienced folks on another, is a bad thing. I think newbies learn best when they are exposed to the tactics and skills of better players.

The SECOND question I have is: will playing with limited axis will help people learn who never played a 6DOF game? And I don't understand how it actually would. If you aren't playing with all the axis you are learning the wrong strategies. Of course, I STINK at Descent, so I recognize that my opinion here is not very valuable. I'll be happy to open a second poll if you wish though, but I'm not certain that it will give very useful information. Peoples opinion (including mine) on whether playing with limited axis will train you properly is just an opinion. It may be backed up by personal experience and observations, but you really need play testing to determine the answer to this one. However, I see the answer to THIS poll as being a bit more useful, although not very scientific or accurate of course. But it seems to be backing up my fears that experienced players will refuse to enter the reduced axis games, and thereby severely limit the newbies exposure.

And, again, this was NOT meant as a "Bash CD" thread, but to ask some questions while there was still time to possibly influence game development. I'm enthusiastic about CD and hope it will be a big success. AND I thank you very much for being willing to discuss it with us.

[Hattrick]

I'm not bashing you guys for coming up with that idea. I'm not thrilled about limited axis either. However, I'll still buy the game and play it to the best of my ability.

X2!

[Lothar]

The question needs to be rephrased to,
"Do you think that a limited axis, optional training mode would help people learn that have never used a 6DoF game?"

Ahh, see, now that's different... I certainly wouldn't use such a mode, and I don't think most others here would. But I can see how it might be useful for new players.

However, I think I have to go with what MD said a little bit, and repeat what I said before: I think it makes a lot more sense to have all of the axes available for the whole game, but to introduce them slowly through a Freespace/FS2/D3 style trainer or just through more complex situations in game (have the first few levels mostly flat, for example.)

I also have to agree with those who've said not to put such a thing in multi. Everyone in multi should have all of their controls available.

[VonVulcan]

Why not just have an optional auto leveling system like D3 has?

[MD-2389]

Ok, after talking to Zach over aim, I'm going to clarify things on his behalf.

The limitation to 4axis is NOT enabled by default. When you first start playing, all six axis are enabled. If the game sees you're having trouble, it will ask you if you would like to disable two of them. Also, as the player progresses in skill, the game will ask if you would like to step it up a little (re-enabling the other two axis). This is based off of an efficiency rating (kill/death/suicide/collision ratio).

[Kilarin]

When you first start playing, all six axis are enabled. If the game sees you're having trouble, it will ask you if you would like to disable two of them.

Hmmm, but the original quote from CD said that this system was going to be for multiplayer. See the quote at the top of this topic. You seem to be discussing a SP system. How will it work for Multiplayer?

Oh, and thank you very much for the added information!

[MD-2389]

It works for both single and multiplayer.

[Kilarin]

If you play on a newbie server you only have to worry about 3 axes. If a 6DOF veteran joins that same server, he will be subject to the same restrictions.

This seems to imply that in MP it's a server option. It couldn't be determined by the users skill level or the 6DOF veteran wouldn't be subject to the same restrictions.

MP was my specific worry. WILL veterans be willing to play on a limited axis server, and if not, is segregating newbies and vetrans in MP a good idea?

[VonVulcan]

If the game sees you're having trouble, it will ask you if you would like to disable two of them. Also, as the player progresses in skill, the game will ask if you would like to step it up a little (re-enabling the other two axis). This is based off of an efficiency rating (kill/death/suicide/collision ratio).

This sounds incredibly complicated.. the game has AI?

Again, why not use something like D3 has, 3 levels of auto leveling.
Max to keep you nearly completly level near all the time.
Medium to allow a little more freedom ect...?
All optional leaving the choice to the gamer.

[Kilarin]

All optional leaving the choice to the gamer.

ZBriggs has stated that it IS all optional and the players choice.

[VonVulcan]

I know, I was just trying to clarify how D3 autoleveling worked.

[zbriggs]

First off. This can be a multiplayer function. There will servers of this type out there. We will probably host some of our own as well. But you have to remember, if this is not the kind of gameplay you want, then don't log onto the server with all the newbies or the one with the restrictions. We are talking about 25% of the servers out there. Use the other 75%. It's no different then playing on a server that doesn't allow smart mines. If you don't like it don't play on that server.

For clarification, by server I mean, hosted game.

Zach

[Krom]

Actually I am thinking a limited axes mode would be a tremendous help to some people, but rather then making it a server setting where everyone has to play in limited axes mode, make it a player toggle setting. Give players the choice of using it in any server they want, or not using it in any server they want. If you make it a server setting that can't be overidden, always default it to off and make it confirm if you want to force this setting on for all players.

You are looking at an issue to make the game easier for people who can't keep their ship flying upright, so do it. Allow them to fly their ship is if they were flying it in a ground pounder, they will surely do better if they can aim and fly comfortably then if they keep getting twisted up. That being said, as they play like that vs players who are \"unlocked\" the advantages of flying with full control and all axes available will be immedately apparent and will motivate them to transistion out of using the assissted leveling mode as soon as possible. Having the real 6dof players picking on newbies with disabled axes won't be that big of a problem I think. Newbies will always fall prey to elites regardless of the settings, but I think if the newbies are able to stay level and aim with far greater ease then previously, they will do BETTER against the elites then jumping into a full 6dof server and getting trashed because they keep getting all twisted up.

If they use a restricted mode, they will not get disorented as easily, but they will probably feel some of the limitations fighting against people who can handle the full movement. I can imagine people who will forever stick to a restricted mode because that will be what they are confortable with, and I can imagine some people using a mode like that will become very skilled even to the point of competing with some of the best.

It is not about one mode being unfair vs another mode, having full control will always be an advantage vs partial control. However being more comfortable and ease of flying can be a greater advantage for a pilot then full freedom of movement. It is about ease and comfort not advantage and disadvantage. Having a ship that does not get disorented would do far more to help the total newbie then hurt them against an elite.

If you want to talk advantages and disadvantages; I know that in times when I have flown against people who get disorented easily it gives me a tremendous advantage over them and I do not hesitate to exploit it. I will do my best to twist up a newbie so badly they won't know up from down, sideways, backwards or any other direction. But if they flew in a restricted mode so they didn't get disorented I would lose that advantage. I think the newbie would gladly give up the \"freedom\" to get hopelessly twisted up in exchange for being able to at least see where I am more often. So I say do not make it a forced server setting but make it a player preference instead. Let them choose how they want to fly.

[Kilarin]

I think if the newbies are able to stay level and aim with far greater ease then previously, they will do BETTER against the elites then jumping into a full 6dof server and getting trashed because they keep getting all twisted up.

Very good point. I hope you are right! I'm certainly anxious to try the game myself.