Bah, I'll throw it out for kicks: UT2004: Descent-like mod?

[[]V[]essenjah]

Just wondering if anyone out there would be interested in such a project still. I have talked with some guys around here about it a few times but they were always too busy. The UT3 platform just doesn't have me like UT2004 does unless it WILL support community based mods to transfer over to the 360/PS3.

My concept, build something simple that is fun and an update to the descent gameplay.


1 nicely developed ship.

3-4 well rounded weapons.

1-2 multiplayer maps.

Physics: As similar to descent as we can get it but different. Player will have to counteract motion a bit to keep flight stability. To the extent that it adds realism and fun, not to the extent that it is too difficult to fly.

Another factor I would like to add is shield regeneration.

Basically, I would like to focus on a simple game modification that could be used as a platform to build a larger scale of levels and game modes down the road.

Any takers? PM me if you would like to discuss further details and get in contact with me so that we can exchange ideas.

Sorry for the crappy intro to this project. I'm just looking for a fun little side project right now and I've tossed the idea up here a few times before so I figured I would give it one last go.

[Duper]

If I had the skills i would. :Just wondering, wasn't this projects mentioned in passing a while back?

[[]V[]essenjah]

Yeah, it was brought up a few times. Every time someone would show interest in it though, they would back out; due to other projects they were working on at the time.

If I could find one or two guys that could script I think the project would be fine. Apparently there is an exporter for Blender now for UT2004. I need to research into it though.

I'm mostly familiar with Blender and Maya but I'm a little bit better with Blender now. Maya's tool set is still better though so it depends.


Just need someone to script for the project. I can do the rest.

[Kyouryuu]

If I were you, I'd still try to develop it on the UnrealEngine 2 platform. UE3, which is what Unreal Tournament 3 uses, has not been received well by the modding community and very few people actually have the resources to run that game (or want to, for that matter, since it is in most ways inferior or unchanged from 2004).

Plus, you're going to run into the same complex quaternion issues with UE3 anyway. Nothing has really improved on that front.

[Dakatsu]

Sadly, UE3 has the best graphics due to normal maps and such in their materials, otherwise UE2 wouldn't be too bad for it...

[Kyouryuu]

... and graphics have what to do with this, exactly?

Seriously, in all the time you people spend \"contemplating\" projects and trying to evaluate \"interest,\" you could have built something by now. The fact that you keep doing this would suggest that you keep setting your sights way too high. Start small and work up from there.

Have you even built one UT map?

[[]V[]essenjah]

I'm going to cut the BS and say, no I have not. I'm really looking at the UT2 engine as you have suggested. Easiest and simplest way to get the job done. Not to mention, it also has the best support for such a project. I'm really tired of tinkering with projects that just aren't feasible and with too little man-power.

My problem is getting support. I've tried to bring this up with different mod developers before, in fact, some that I worked on projects with previously. I spent a lot of hours watching and reading tutorials on how to use the Unreal Editor but mostly focused on Maya PLE. I just never could gather enough support to become willing enough to jump head-on into it.

It looks far easier to develop for than Descent 3 by all means. You can actually use high resolution textures with it. Maybe not normal maps but you can use high resolution textures so that you don't have to divide your textures up 20-30 times and try to cleverly cover up seam lines to make them look half-decent. With UT2004, you can make one to three textures and you are good to go.

My interest is in gameplay this time around. Not glory, not winning some contest... not a proving ground of any kind. Lets just make a mod that is fun to play.

[Aus-RED-5]

I don't get it..... why another project when there is one that has most of the basics done already?

ummm Into Cerberon anyone?

I mean sure.... it's slow going, but they are still working on it. Sure it lack proper joystick support, but hey, it does have maps, ship, weapons and power ups - plus much much more. It's also playable for online multi player action. It has lots going for it.

If you or anyone else is willing and wanting to do something? Why not help this project go further if you have the the know hows?

[[]V[]essenjah]

1. I am not a programmer.

2. Building for UT2004 is much easier and has a lot more support along with tutorials.

3. I know how to use Maya PLE (which is unusable with any game other than UT related games).

4. Level development is much simpler making progress much faster.

5. Joystick support has been planned for what 2-4 years now? Still no support. UT2004 as it built right into the game.

6. UT2004 allows for large scale levels with indoor and outdoor environments.

7. No one plays Doom 3 anymore. No one at all plays into Cerberon that I know of, including myself (no joystick support and lack of players).

8. I'm not interested in making just another copy of Descent. I want it to have a few subtle changes to make it more challenging and with better physics. To be specific, longer and more challenging dogfights that involve team-work at times.

9. Larger levels with a realistic scale that include indoor and outdoor environments.


I am more interested in gameplay, fun, and balance as apposed to something just visually pleasing.

[Floyd]

\"i'm no programmer\" is no excuse though, since it needs heaps of modeling, sounds, scripts, levels etc.
they have like 10 people. check out the speed this is currently going at (life etc.). now, how many people do YOU have? we'd sooner leave for mars vacation than play a project made by 2 people

no one is forcing you anyway. just put #8 and the unnumbered last sentence on top of that list

[Dakatsu]

8. I'm not interested in making just another copy of Descent. I want it to have a few subtle changes to make it more challenging and with better physics. To be specific, longer and more challenging dogfights that involve team-work at times.

Like I said, I like UE2 (they actually have vector gravity and such) over UE3 in most cases, but physics is one department where UE2 gets completely wasted, not really because UE3 has super-awesome physics, but because UE2 has poor physics, and most of anything doesn't replicate (although the makers of Ballistic weapons do have nice physics-based grenades.

I've been looking into making a FPS game (not a Descent-type game) on the Unreal Engine, so I know a decent amount of stuff about it...

[[]V[]essenjah]

Yes, but what tools do I use? I'm not really a fan of Doom 3's editor. I'm primarily a texture/3D artist/animator. What tools can I use for modeling? Blender? I would need someone to re-write entirely new scripts for it. The current scripts are outdated by a few years and can only export static meshes. I don't even know if they can handle exporting textures and UV coordinates.

In reality, what may look like a team of 10 is actually a team of 2. 2 people doing all the work, 8 people picking their noses. (True for most mods, if the IC team is REALLY lucky, this \"might\" be different.)

I would rather see a small team that is actually devoted to a single project. No fancy pants webpages or advertisements to waste time (that can come later on when the project is finished); just a solid team.

IC also has a lot of rules to follow. They have to follow perfectly in Interplay's footsteps, retracing all the physics perfectly or people will not be happy. I strive to do something different so that I don't have to follow in these footsteps. I've been doing it for 7-8 years now. I'm tired of building just another plasma cannon model or just another smart missile model.

I'm also aiming at a system for this where it is more like COD4. When you spawn, a menu pops up and you select your weapon rather than picking up random spawns. Easiest way to maintain balance in a game, not to mention, easier to design models for.

Anyway, if there aren't any takers, I'll probably just go back to modeling for Oblivion where people appreciate my work and provide lots of support.

Again, I will mention that no one plays IC. :\\ There are few playing Descent 3 and fewer playing IC. I would rather just play Descent 3. Not to mention, I can't stand Doom 3. At least I enjoy playing UT2004.

[DarkHorse]

Sirius and I are thinking about doing something with UT3 once we're done with Wolf's project, which will probably be before the end of the month. Basically whenever I get time to complete that cockpit, though I think Wolf is going to start the beta before then.

Still going to have to fit it among work on Crysis assets though, and Sirius doesn't have a whole lot of experience with 3D apps. So yeah, from that standpoint it may not be a go. Figure it out soon.

[BUBBALOU]

I'll probably just go back to modeling for Oblivion where people appreciate my work and provide lots of support.

Sounds like you already have a plan... laters

[[]V[]essenjah]

Heh, I always have a plan. I'm just a little tired of working on Oblivion models. Better than playing The Little Red Hen though.

Maybe I'll try taking a crack at it on my own at some point. I would finish D3U accept for the fact that I had so many textures to keep track of. I eventually burned myself out on it after it gained little recognition.

[Duper]

Kyo.

You're in the industry so I'm pretty sure you know why UT3 isn't doing all that great. There were a couple of developments in the community.

1). EA basically told the community to \"piss off\" after the first patch. They were too busy with other projects that were more lucrative. Mind you that's a loose translation, but those are proverbial grounds at the bottom of the pot. After a while, their board mods started blowing away posts on their forum that even came close to criticizing the problems. I read a quote from a mod that said the editor was stable and there was no reason to \"fix it\" nor were there any plans to do so. I'm all for not letting community develop your game for you, but stiff arming them isn't wise either.

2). The editor is adn was buggier then the Descent 3 editor was/is. They cleaned it up some, but there are still enough issues that make using it similar to wrestling a greased pig.

3). Then there is the who PS3 crowd issue. For some reason - legitimate or arbitrary - (I haven't looked into the why's) maps for UT3 need to be complied differently for the console than for the PC's. And thus resulting in an avalanche of requests and demandsthat player made for the PS3. From the little that I read that the LOTS that I heard most of the players on the PS3 side of things wasn't at all cordial.

On the flip side of the coin, the editor has a very nifty interface for scripting. There is a lot of latitude for personal scripting styles... which can be a good thing and a bad thing.

The editor itself has some pretty cool tools for terrain building and populating. It's very limited, however, to the type of files it will allow for importing meshes. Mostly just Max models. There are a couple more, but I can't remember what they are off the top of my head.

There are some absolutely mind blowing maps made out there by players. Many have real talent.

Kyouryuu, forgive me if this seems leveled at you because it's not. I wanted to let the others know what's been going on in this area. The game has many great qualities and features and EA has more recently seemed be softening its stance where the community is concerned, but I'm not sure as it's been several months since I last heard. And also, it's not uncommon for a UT3 custom map to be between 80 and 100 megs in size; particularly warfare maps.

On the whole, UT3 is fairly easily modable where textures, meshes and scripting is concerned. You need to vault the wall called \"editor\".

Mess. don't use Blender. While it will import, it will import but it will be difficult and there's no guarantee that it will wisiwig. The person that I know that is very active in UT3 modeling and modding had great difficulty with texturing and lighting where Blender and UT3 are concerned.

[[]V[]essenjah]

That's what Maya PLE is for. I've used it a bit and I like Maya's interface. I'm more familiar with Blender at this point though. Meshes could be converted over with Lightwave though. I know a couple of guys that use Lightwave and claim that it works great with UT2004.

UT3 is out of the question. I've loved the idea for a long time and the engine is beautiful but the community support sucks monkey turds. There is no way I'm working with it without community support. They can't provide support because of EA.

I will, on the whole, have as many problems with IC as I would with UT3. IC I can't convert to at all. At least with UT2004 I have some options if I can't use Blender.

Blender I mostly use for Oblivion and Descent mods. It works fantastic for both actually. If, you have the right tools. With D3 it requires a few tricks. With Oblivion, it has better support than Max because of the community effort.

[BUBBALOU]

for blender it's just a matter of someone making a python script for you and your cause

[Kyouryuu]

EA basically told the community to "piss off" after the first patch. They were too busy with other projects that were more lucrative. Mind you that's a loose translation, but those are proverbial grounds at the bottom of the pot.

That stance goes beyond EA. Epic's response to developer concerns tends to follow in the same vein. If they didn't need it for Gears of War, they didn't bother adding it. Yet, at the same time, they market their engine as a general purpose solution. I feel for the studios that are forced to work on MMORPGs with Unreal tech. They are possibly the only group to have it worse than we do, with our sandbox cities.

The editor is adn was buggier then the Descent 3 editor was/is. They cleaned it up some, but there are still enough issues that make using it similar to wrestling a greased pig.

Not having UT3 myself, I'm not aware of where UnrealEd development froze or what UT-specific features it has, but the editor is very unstable and an absolute resource hog. All because Epic couldn't program a basic idle loop, the editor consumes 100% of your CPU all the time. It has been this way since Gemini.

Simple things in the editor take an atrocious amount of time because all through Epic's work, you see little care for optimization. Trying selecting FoliageFactories, for example, and you'll find that by the eighth one, the selection time grows exponentially. Don't even get me started on the time it takes to change a parameter on them. That's just one example.

Then there is the who PS3 crowd issue. For some reason - legitimate or arbitrary - (I haven't looked into the why's) maps for UT3 need to be complied differently for the console than for the PC's.

There are more than a few differences. For example, we have to cook to the 360, even though one would think that the PC and the 360 are similar enough. Cooking is an amazingly time-consuming process.

On the flip side of the coin, the editor has a very nifty interface for scripting. There is a lot of latitude for personal scripting styles... which can be a good thing and a bad thing.

It is very much a double-edged sword. I've seen Kismet scripts that are very clean and I've seen others that are absolute nightmares of interconnected events and cross-dependencies where nothing is obvious.

The biggest problem with Kismet is that making a change that affects several maps takes a long time because there is no way to propagate it other than visiting each map and manually changing it. While I can appreciate the visual, artist-friendly approach to scripting (though I haven't met a single artist who isn't freaked out by Kismet), it's no match for the speed of scripting through a simple text program.

The editor itself has some pretty cool tools for terrain building and populating. It's very limited, however, to the type of files it will allow for importing meshes. Mostly just Max models. There are a couple more, but I can't remember what they are off the top of my head.

Not as cool as Source Engine's terrain tools, at least in my opinion. While Hammer's interface isn't as nice as UnrealEd's, it is much less crashy and their system is far more generic. Any face can be terrain. It's great for making crumbled edges and such.

UnrealEd lets you import only a few formats for models. Initially, Epic used the same ActorX plug-in from before. There was a time when they adopted the COLLADA format and wanted to go full bore with that, but it fell through and I'm not sure what most developers use today. The problems with ActorX are that it inconsistently assigns material channels on import (so, when you manually hooked up the materials, they are randomly in a different order), and specularity is messed up.

And also, it's not uncommon for a UT3 custom map to be between 80 and 100 megs in size; particularly warfare maps.

That doesn't surprise me. Terrain gets huge real fast in their engine. Also, it's hard to say how much their user community understands about optimizations w.r.t. lighting and shadows that have a huge effect on file size.

for blender it's just a matter of someone making a python script for you and your cause

Yes, but for now, I don't think a satisfactory script exists. I went through the trouble of trying to do this through COLLADA and had issues on import. There's also the problem of scale. Blender's flaky "the grid is whatever you want it to be" creed demands that you model things really huge to fit properly in Unreal's world. Blender becomes pretty unwieldy when models get to be a certain size.

I'm going to cut the BS and say, no I have not.

Then understand why you have no support. This is not a difficult problem to figure out. Guy walks into a bar full of game designers (let's pretend for a moment that no one is drunk ), tells everyone in there, "Hey, I have this great idea for a game. What do you say? Do you want to help me?"

As a customer of the bar, what would your answer be to that guy who just walked in off the street?

Now, what would your answer be if that guy was Shigeru Miyamoto?

People don't take you seriously unless you have the reputation and the credentials to back it up. Otherwise, you're just a guy with an idea. Ideas are a dime a dozen, kid. Anyone can come up with an idea. That's the easy part. An idea and ambition will only get you so far. The only way people will take you seriously is if you get into the trenches and prove yourself. Prove that you're capable of doing what you're saying you will and that you aren't yet another person in a long line of "pie in the sky" thinkers.

A wise man once said, "Put up or shut up."

I don't mean to have this sound like an attack, but I'm not going to candy coat this. If you haven't made a single map, maybe you ought to worry more about that than trying to convince others to do your work for you.

[Duper]

Thanks Kyo, I'm not as well versed as I make myself sound. Most of what I know I learned by watching over someone's shoulder and asking \"What's wrong\" every 10 minutes upon hearing a volley of swearing and cussing

One of the weirder \"features\" of the editor is that you MUST have a widescreen monitor or you absolutely do Not have access to a number of critical options like Exit and save. The editor does not resize itself.

It's really weird. If they had put 6 more months into dev. They could have had a great editor.

The Crysis editor by comparison is is pretty easy to use and stable. (I haven't used it that much.) .. too bad that any 5 year old can hack the game.

Thanks again.

[Sirius]

Ugh. Gotta love that. UT3; bad editor, fast/stable game. Crysis; good editor, slow/buggy game.

[[]V[]essenjah]

Kyouryuu, I respect you a lot and that respect is well earned. Your assumption about me is only half-correct though:

I have a lot of experience in working for a team and with running a mod development team. I'm also very used to working solo... in-fact most of the time I work solo anymore.


However, this doesn't excuse the fact that I haven't worked with Unreal Ed as it IS a completely different system. However, I have a hard time just sitting down and building a level for UT mostly because I'm not a real big fan of FPS gameplay. I really need to have some sort of goal in mind beyond that of just another UT level.

Perhaps taking a shot at building a level would be a good idea though and maybe it would be a subtle proving ground for such a project.

Blender porting is a nasty issue. I know what you mean with the scaling problem. Not only that but the axis sometimes end up having problems (at least with Oblivion/Morrowind). At least Maya has a decent system for scaling and if I remember correctly, you can set up your own units. The thing I really like about Maya, is, say if I'm building an aircraft, I can figure out how tall the pilot is, from that, I can figure out about how big the cockpit will be and figure out a realistic size for the engines and determine the correct scale of the rest of the aircraft.


I doubt you would let me do this, but a port of Halcyon would actually be pretty cool in UT Add a couple of ladders and some additional cover points for ground troops and it could be a lot of fun for a CTF match in regular UT.

[Duper]

Ugh. Gotta love that. UT3; bad editor, fast/stable game. Crysis; good editor, slow/buggy game.

Bingo!!

[Dakatsu]

My main issue with UE3 is acutally with UT3, the platform/game you would want to build mods on, simply because it sold nothing, their community is practically smaller than ours

[DarkHorse]

It's a bit hard to be smaller than 50.

Actually, this would be a great help for future projects using a UE version. Between 2k4 and 3, what can each do that the other can't from a technical standpoint?

[[]V[]essenjah]

I was just disappointed with UT3 in general. I actually liked playing 2K4 online. In UT3, they decided to \"fix\" things that actually were fun little exploits. They also made it move so fast that I couldn't keep up with the action and simply gave up. It wasn't even fun at all for me. They screwed up the Hellbender (used to be one of the deadliest vehicles in-game with proper team-work and they turned it into a one-man vehicle that is extremely weak. If you jump on the hovercraft wings, they suck you down inside the blades, something that was actually fun to use to gain a tactical edge on the other team. It is one of the weakest vehicles in the game but you could use it to scoot around and sneak objectives under the apposing team's noses. More realistic but not as fun.

Maybe they shouldn't \"fix\" things that are fun and maybe use the exploits but make something better out of them: IE: Halo 3 has the ATV which has no guns on it but you can use it to quickly steal a flag or to get to an objective if you are on the apposing side of the map, however it is unarmored and can be easily destroyed.

I seriously don't know what goes through developers' minds when they do this kind of stuff.

[Sirius]

It's a mixed blessing. The UT3 Raptor was much more fun than the UT2k4 one, for instance. You can actually control it...

[[]V[]essenjah]

Really? I didn't notice that much difference between the two? Of course... I was pretty decent with the raptor though in UT2004. I used that and the gunship when I wasn't using the Hellbender.

[Dakatsu]

One thing I thought of, is in UT2004, if you get into a ragdoll mode, you can't get out of it. With UT3, you can go from regular model, to ragdoll, then back to regular model.

[Aus-RED-5]

Well, if you do go the UT2004 route. That's cool, so good luck with it.

BTW - In case anybody missed it.
We already have a Descent 1 lvl 1 remake for UT2004 MP games.
Awesome work created by sushi.h.a.

Plus, it maybe a good idea to hook up with sushi.h.a. since he seems to have started on a 6DOF MOD as well.

I am presently working on a 6DOF mod for Unreal Tournament 2004. I plan to build both a plain Descent and a GroupC version. Completion is a ways off, however I do have a few screen shots of working 6DOF flight in the ut2004 Descent1 Level1 I have been working on. The new ship object class I built is based on the karma vehicle code, and is presently called "Descent Pyro". As the "Descent Pyro" is its own vehicle class, I hope to be able to build in all the basic functionality in to this base class, and then extend it into a table modifiable ship class, much like the system Descent3. The main difference is that the objects built on the "Descent Pyro" will be extensible.

[DarkHorse]

I don't really want to play D1 level 1 again. It'd be better to have some new content.

[Aus-RED-5]

I don't really want to play D1 level 1 again. It'd be better to have some new content.

Well duh....

I was merely pointing out that there is someone already capable of building maps plus MODing and could help.

[[]V[]essenjah]

Sushi? Hmmmm I thought he bailed out on that? I talked with him about this a year ago and he claimed he had other projects going on at the time but he sounded interested. I think he contacted me later on but life was very time-consuming for me at that particular moment. I'll toss a shout out to him.

[Aus-RED-5]

Well he did do a Project Update thread about a week ago.