Education, Threat to National Security

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue May 01, 2012 8:21 am

While reading how Condoleeza Rice would make a very powerful VP pick for Romney I caught this and it's stunning:

"she (Rice) has partnered with Joel Klein, the former chancellor of the New York City public school system, to draw attention to the crisis in American public education.

They found that 75 percent of American young adults do not qualify to serve in the military because they have criminal records, are physically unfit or — the biggest reason — have inadequate levels of education. Even more disturbing is the report’s finding that 30 percent of the young people graduating from America’s high schools don’t do well enough in math, science and English on the aptitude test to serve in the military.

“The education crisis may well be the greatest threat to our national security,” Rice explained at a recent speech before the Heritage Foundation in Washington.

“The crisis in K-12 is producing unemployable people who will ultimately be on the dole because they will have nowhere else to go.”

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/05/ ... or-romney/

Now I don't know about you but finding out that 75% of young adults aren't eligible to join the military of all places is just pathetic. Where and how is all this educational money being spent other than to fatten the NEA and unions pockets? I know unions promote mediocrity but in education it should be not tolerated. Perhaps it is time to pay teachers for performance rather than they merely got a degree in education.

And in case you didn't click the link, the article was written by Juan Williams a ex NPR liberal commentator and now Fox News liberal commentator

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue May 01, 2012 10:15 am

Well, if we paid our teachers better and gave them fewer hours to do their jobs, maybe we'd get better results. Pay and long hours are several of the reasons we don't see more men teaching either.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/ ... the-world/

And charter schools may help those parents with money and the ability to transfer, but the remainder of our gutted public system that's left for the poorer, less fortunate masses, who are being forced into larger and larger impersonal class sizes as a result, is slowly bled dry by the diversion of those public funds to those private charter schools, throwing the rest of the system into the trash. So we get what we allocate the money for.

Parents are to blame too, for not being more involved in their child's school. Our schools are now thought of as glorified day care centers, but without the money to run them effectively.

By the way, if Juan Williams is a liberal, I'm really a cat typing on a computer keyboard.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Tue May 01, 2012 11:15 am

And we are not teaching or enabling our children to be adults in either the home or our schools, the political correctness of the grading system in the schools and our society are part of the problem. they teach and encourage that it's OK to be mediocre, lets not hurt poor Timmy's feeling by giving him an F,

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Tue May 01, 2012 12:03 pm

I'm with Cuda on this one. Same thing happens for little kids' sports--they all get trophies at the end. No one strives to be better because being "good enough" works.

The problem is that education is failing in every part of our society. It's not just the costs of college, it starts from the very beginning. My fiance is a teacher and she says that NCLB is the single worst piece of educational legislation ever passed. The teachers are only allowed to teach what is precisely on those tests--nothing more, nothing less. It sucks.

Engineers and doctors aren't found in college. They're found in elementary school. Honestly, I have no flipping idea how to fix the system. Is it even possible? How would a project like that even get started? This is so far beyond the Unions / charter schools / everything else. It's a massive problem....and like everything else...it's catching up to us real quick.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Tue May 01, 2012 12:05 pm

Oh and woodchip, I don't know how teachers could be paid less....they already make a mere pittance and many of the problems are simply not their fault. I can't tell you how much classroom crap my fiance has to buy because the school district won't. I'm not talking about new computers and ipods, I'm talking about pencils and paper. And she's in a decent area as well!!!

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Tue May 01, 2012 12:26 pm

There just has to be a way you can have software take the reigns when it comes to teaching. Not just testing! Not just as a database of information! But actually doing one one one teaching. Anyone that says it's impossible is trying to dismiss the approach; it's an excuse not to think. However, it needs to be the next step. If there was a way to make a software instructor get you from an introductory level to an advanced level of math, science, history, and reading, teaching writing and lab teaching could be reserved for humans.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Tue May 01, 2012 2:15 pm

I always saw the military as an emergency fallback.

In my opinion, it comes down to parenting, family life, and individuals. No matter what the government tries, short of removing children from homes, I predict minimal impact. The truth of the matter is that the kids that do the best in school are the ones who have parents that both make them do their homework and help them in it when they're struggling. If the parents don't have the knowledge to help the children themselves it presents a hamper, but not a impenetrable barrier - there are free tutoring services out there, any my opinion is that 90% of the work is done when the parents make sure that their child's education is a very high priority. Once that's done, it takes a parent to recognize their child's strengths and nurture those strengths to unleash the potential that each kid has inside them.

The problem is that raising quality children is hard work, and the majority of adults are too busy to put in the necessary work.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Tue May 01, 2012 2:17 pm

Assigning blame rather thank thinking outside the box: E&C.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Tue May 01, 2012 2:46 pm

My income at the moment consists of part-time tutoring on an online service, and I've seen some of this first-hand. I tutor calculus for the moment, so it's higher-level stuff that you'd pretty much only get as high-school seniors or in early college...but throughout my sessions, I've had a disturbing number of instances of students having trouble with basic concepts that I'd expect them to have mastered years before. It's kind of sad when a student has no trouble finding a certain derivative, yet gets extremely stuck on multiplying two binomials together.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue May 01, 2012 3:27 pm

CUDA wrote:And we are not teaching or enabling our children to be adults in either the home or our schools, the political correctness of the grading system in the schools and our society are part of the problem. they teach and encourage that it's OK to be mediocre, lets not hurt poor Timmy's feeling by giving him an F,

You're right about that. When I was in school all through the 60's and 70's, when you failed or slacked off, you were given an F, and my parents would have been on my case about it and made me work before I got to go out and play. I think that now, the expectation is to give out good grades so that the school will get more financing, a better rating or status and make parents feel like they don't need to be involved in their child's schooling. Parents now are both working and too wrapped up in their own lives to watch what goes on with the lives of their kids, OR, they think that the schools are there to teach everything and that it's not the parent's responsibility to see that their kids are actually learning anything.

There is now the political correctness of mainstreaming kids that have learning difficulties, which holds back the whole class and makes the teacher's work load almost impossible. I'm afraid that IS a moronic liberal idea that's failed the system and the kids.

And the other problem is that teachers and schools aren't given any authority to punish bad behavior. Too many parents think their little Billy or Susy would never misbehave and that it's definitely NOT the teacher's or school's place to discipline their little miscreants. When I was in school, the school teachers and principles had full authority to punish bad behavior and make sure the parents knew that bad behavior would not be tolerated in class, and the parents actually BACKED THEM UP. Now, they are more likely to try and sue the school for punishing their little baby.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Tue May 01, 2012 3:53 pm

snoopy wrote:The problem is that raising quality children is hard work, and the majority of adults are too LAZY to put in the necessary work.

fix it for ya

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Tue May 01, 2012 4:16 pm

A number of years ago, I had experience with some of this, as a 9th-grade teacher in the poorest neighborhood in the city.

I had to deal with things like:

- Lack of materials. For four classes of about 25 students each, I had perhaps 20 books, half of which were already beat to hell, and half the time I couldn't even create worksheets because the equipment in the copier room was broken or we were plain out of paper. [@Isaac: The district had a cool mobile computer-instruction thing, but it was only occasionally available after school hours.]

- Lack of disciplinary authority. I wasn't good with discipline (learned the hard way), but it was made even worse that the most I could do was a piece of paper sent to the principal and a parental phone call. Of course, over half the kids didn't have parents, much less caring ones.

- Kids who were just "passed along", some with learning disorders, who could barely add and subtract, and were stuck in my class.

- Kids who were absolutely brilliant, but stuck because I couldn't spend enough time with them to keep them challenged.

- Building that was falling apart, parent-teacher-conference nights when zero parents showed up, one disturbed kid whose father worked as a pimp (and said he wanted his son to join the family business)... I could go on.

- Ridiculous pay scales that only pushed the good teachers to move out. There were a few outstanding amazing teachers who stayed because they felt called to help those kids... but the turnover was a huge problem.

The US Public School system is a broken, screwed-up system... especially in poor districts. Those schools need help.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue May 01, 2012 5:50 pm

snoopy wrote: In my opinion, it comes down to parenting, family life, and individuals. ......The problem is that raising quality children is hard work, and the majority of adults are too busy to put in the necessary work.

yup,agree completely. You can pay teachers 400K per year, and pour money into school systems, or send every kid to a Christian Charter School, anything, it doesn't work without parents who give a crap. More to they point, they have to insist upon and participate actively in a well-rounded education for their children.

Ever wonder how we produced so many learned men from one-room schoolhouses and the like? Education mattered to them.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Tue May 01, 2012 6:19 pm

callmeslick wrote:...it doesn't work without parents who give a crap.

Abso-frickin'-lutely!

Of all the problems I mentioned above, the most common thread (and the most common complaint among the other teachers) was always parents. Whether my students had any, whether they cared enough to even come to parent-teacher nights, whether they actively responded when I called, whether they actively encouraged their kid to achieve...

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Tue May 01, 2012 6:31 pm

Beating a dead horse here... We need to rethink the way its done, not try to further highlight the blame....
1) Cheaper. 2) Vastly more effective.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Tue May 01, 2012 6:50 pm

Let's get this straight, Isaac... Since education is failing because of bad parenting, we need to "rethink" the way education is done in order to make it cheaper and "vastly more effective", instead of highlighting the apparent root of the problem? Did you not just stab logic in the back with some grand, naive blade?

"gotta go forward to go back. better press on." -Willy Wonka

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Tue May 01, 2012 6:56 pm

Constantly rehighlighting the problem dosen't solve anything, since the same people are probably blaming someone else anyway.

Back to my dead horse... we need to rethink the system. We can't be scared of "what if".

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Tue May 01, 2012 7:37 pm

Isaac wrote:There just has to be a way you can have software take the reigns when it comes to teaching. Not just testing! Not just as a database of information! But actually doing one one one teaching. Anyone that says it's impossible is trying to dismiss the approach; it's an excuse not to think. However, it needs to be the next step. If there was a way to make a software instructor get you from an introductory level to an advanced level of math, science, history, and reading, teaching writing and lab teaching could be reserved for humans.

It's being worked on by people out there. To be effective, I've got to that that it'd have to be very complex/"smart." I'm okay with the concept, but I don't think the primary problem is the quality of the teaching - it's the importance that the kids put on the learning. How will a computer program make a difference in that?

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue May 01, 2012 8:08 pm

Zuruck wrote:...Honestly, I have no flipping idea how to fix the system. Is it even possible?

uh, you mean becides the obvious one of changing the budget? If schools not getting enough tax funding... lets increase their tax funding at the expense of other stuff like the rediculously huge military budget. Seems kinda obvious.
But if you were by extension asking how do we fix the system that culturally/politically sustains things like the huge military budget and other such things that suck the tax dollars from where it's really needed, then yeah that is the tough one to solve.

Isaac wrote:There just has to be a way you can have software take the reigns when it comes to teaching.

No-one's mentioning Khan Academy for some reason

. Seems to be a very good answer.
Reverses the whole school/home-work dynamic. You basically do your entire class at home - via pre-recorded video, you can't miss anything (you can rewind parts you don't get as much as you want). You still goto school, but it's just to get help with stuff you're stuck on (ie: it's personal tutoring, only as necessary).
Also there's a constant software based testing that tracks your progress and awards much loved video-game style unlocks and achievements.
All free

snoopy wrote:...when the parents make sure that their child's education is a very high priority.

Parents that make sure their child's education is very high priority, would probably also vote for politicians who make education as a high priority (ie: a priority when it comes to budgets). ie: fix one of those problems, and you've likely also fixed the other problem. (ie: you are fixing 2 problems at once, it's gonna be hard)

foil wrote:over half the kids didn't have parents,

what?

Ok this is an alien world i'm unfamiliar with. Throw everything i just said out. What you just said there... made me think that this is more of a problem for World-Vision(tm) and teams of trauma councillors.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Tue May 01, 2012 8:24 pm

Lazy parents, check.

limp-wristed discipline, check.

No child left behind act, check.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Tue May 01, 2012 9:12 pm

snoopy wrote:It's being worked on by people out there. To be effective, I've got to that that it'd have to be very complex/"smart." I'm okay with the concept, but I don't think the primary problem is the quality of the teaching - it's the importance that the kids put on the learning. How will a computer program make a difference in that?

Pardon me if I sound more retarded than usual; I'm about to go to bed. Sleepy...
Anyway, I agree. Teaching is done once the student has tried to think about a problem. Simply giving answers, lectures, and illustrations is mostly wasted unless the student is first trying to think about the problem or recall information. Because of this, adding more funding for books, teaching tools, and other stuff is mostly waste. (see op)

Snoopy and Roid, you know how a bird flaps its wings and is able to fly? Compare this to how we teach students in the class room. When we have a machine fly it still uses the air foil, but, with rotating parts, the problem of flight is solved completely differently. Computers can't teach like humans, but we shouldn't try to mimic nature when solving this. Only use the basic principle (air foil): the student has to think first before learning.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed May 02, 2012 4:54 am

Ever wonder how we produced so many learned men from one-room schoolhouses and the like? Education mattered to them.

That's because back in the day, most were self-educated and it had a sense of discovery. Now we tell people what the "answers" are and number them 1-4 =/, or true or false. The modern education system has all but killed the pioneering and innovative spirit in this country.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Wed May 02, 2012 7:47 am

I can see that.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed May 02, 2012 11:14 am

Isaac failed the turing test. Now THAT is a bad education.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Wed May 02, 2012 12:23 pm

Only cause I thought you were human.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed May 02, 2012 12:29 pm

We can throw all the technology we have at education, it still won't fix the problem of lazy parents wanting a system that magically turns their kids into super special people with no effort on the parents' part.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Thu May 03, 2012 9:26 pm

fliptw wrote:We can throw all the technology we have at education, it still won't fix the problem of lazy parents wanting a system that magically turns their kids into super special people with no effort on the parents' part.

Ok... we have two groups of people blaming each other. And why not? Both are right to some degree. We need better of both. Which will improve faster? Not the parents.

This thread is a great example of what I think is the core of the problem. Society would rather over-highlight the blame than think of a systemic solution.

Just try to use your imagination without fixating on blame. It's not expensive or hard. Just try it. Your worst idea is better than you think, because it can get someone else thinking too. Reply!

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:54 am

There's a difference between "providing schooling" and "getting an education". If students don't want to learn and/or aren't prepared to learn then it may make little difference in terms of how much money or wizz-bang technology you throw at them. "Providing schooling" is what the society can make available to their students, but "getting an education" is what the students, and their families, bring to the table in terms of desire to learn and willingness to do the hard work that results in good outcomes.

Oh, as as to "providing schooling", I bet the environment could be improved dramatically by having better discipline in the classroom.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri May 04, 2012 10:18 am

The problem with the education system can't be pinned on one specific group, the blame and failure falls on society as a whole. The parents, teachers and schools are only small pieces of a system which doesn't work because children are treated like a hindrance or inconvenience and school is a special prison to keep them out of the way. All so the "adults" can work and contribute to society through buying worthless Chinese manufactured trinkets and consuming bland unimaginative movies and music.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Fri May 04, 2012 5:03 pm

Krom wrote:The problem with the education system can't be pinned on one specific group, the blame and failure falls on society as a whole. The parents, teachers and schools are only small pieces of a system which doesn't work because children are treated like a hindrance or inconvenience and school is a special prison to keep them out of the way. All so the "adults" can work and contribute to society through buying worthless Chinese manufactured trinkets and consuming bland unimaginative movies and music.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the blame for the system is laid first at the feet of people who author or contribute to this system, and then unavoidably at the feet of everyone who puts up with it.

My parents didn't put up with it. They home-schooled all of my brothers, sisters, and myself, and so far we're following their example. They felt strongly enough to home-school us from the start so many years ago, and I can think of a number of ways that schools have gone downhill since I was young. Sucks that we still pay for everyone ease's screwed up progeny to be screwed up worse.

I like to joke sometimes, but I don't actually get down on people for being public-schooled.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri May 04, 2012 6:30 pm

I say we have state controlled creches where kids live during school year so the can be properly indoc....er educated.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sun May 06, 2012 10:58 am

at the other extreme....the home schooling idea has little, if any, track record of success. First off, many parents would have neither the time or inclination. Second, many(all, that I have known personally) homeschooling parents teach a limited agenda skewed in most cases to a religious model, not one that leads to critical thinking. Finally, life, ultimately, is about social interaction and teamwork, which cannot be obtained via a strict homeschool environment. Now, I am aware that many states and localities provide public school system support for homeschoolers which overcome much of these. Then, the question becomes one of the effective use of public funds to dribble away onto homeschool, partial homeschool and other 'special' programs instead of focusing upon a strong public education system for all the children of the community.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun May 06, 2012 11:03 am

I knew someone would raise the old tired objection of “social interaction” that’s where the Boy Scouts and soccer club come in. When I went to school you sat at your desk with your hands folded and eyes forward, and there was no talking in the halls either. You went to school to learn…period.

There is nothing inherently wrong with home schooling, it’s just a perceived threat to the powers that be.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sun May 06, 2012 11:41 am

There's nothing wrong with the overall principle of it, but there is a huge issue in that the majority of people out there aren't qualified to personally educate their children, and a non-negligible percentage of home-schooling is tied up in religious fundamentalism.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Sun May 06, 2012 11:56 am

callmeslick wrote:at the other extreme....the home schooling idea has little, if any, track record of success. First off, many parents would have neither the time or inclination. Second, many(all, that I have known personally) homeschooling parents teach a limited agenda skewed in most cases to a religious model, not one that leads to critical thinking. Finally, life, ultimately, is about social interaction and teamwork, which cannot be obtained via a strict homeschool environment. Now, I am aware that many states and localities provide public school system support for homeschoolers which overcome much of these. Then, the question becomes one of the effective use of public funds to dribble away onto homeschool, partial homeschool and other 'special' programs instead of focusing upon a strong public education system for all the children of the community.

I find it remarkable how absolutely little you know about homeschooling and how incredibly WRONG you are.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... nal-tests/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162- ... n-college/

A new study published in The Journal of College Admission suggests that homeschool students enjoy higher ACT scores, grade point averages and graduation rates compared with other college students. The finding are especially interesting because there has been a paucity of research focused on how homeschooled students fare in college.

Finally, life, ultimately, is about social interaction and teamwork, which cannot be obtained via a strict homeschool environment.

thats the biggest spew of bull★■◆● thats ever been posted on this BB.

home schoolers tend to be better prepared for life in the private sector than public school kids. get this. BECAUSE THEY SOCIALIZE WITH ADULTS. they aren't spending time with other kids doing stupid things that other kids do.

you might wish to read up on that subject also, here are some facts for you

Here are some of Cogan's findings:

Homeschool students earned a higher ACT score (26.5) versus 25.0 for other incoming freshmen.
Homeschool students earned more college credits (14.7) prior to their freshmen year than other students (6.0).
Homeschooled freshmen were less likely to live on campus (72.4%) than the rest of the freshmen class (92.7%).
Homeschoolers were more likely to identify themselves as Roman Catholic (68.4%).
Homeschool freshmen earned a higher grade points average (3.37) their first semester in college compared with the other freshmen (3.08).
Homeschool students finished their freshmen year with a better GPA (3.41) than the rest of their class (3.12).
The GPA advantage was still present when homeschoolers were college seniors. Their average GPA was 3.46 versus 3.16 for other seniors.
Homeschool students graduated from college at a higher rate (66.7%) than their peers (57.5%).

Of course, the big knock on homeschool students is that they never develop social skills since their classrooms are often their kitchen tables and their mothers are often their teachers. Cogan, however, noted that another homeschool study that looked at more than 7,300 adults, who had been homeschooled, determined that the homeschool graduates were more likely to have voted and participated in community service than other adults.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun May 06, 2012 12:14 pm

And that’s where the threat comes in…those pesky private and home schools are stealing the best students from public school.

Top Gun wrote: and a non-negligible percentage of home-schooling is tied up in religious fundamentalism.

So what?

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Sun May 06, 2012 12:37 pm

Well we all know religion. Is the devil's work

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sun May 06, 2012 1:24 pm

Religion is not, but fundamentalism is pretty damn close to it, at least when it interferes with proper education. Raising children to ignore fundamental tenets of reasoning, or to bury their heads in the sand and deny basic truths, does our society and our country no favors. The numbers in the studies CUDA linked are certainly encouraging, but like slick, I've also come across people who home-school for all the wrong reasons.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Sun May 06, 2012 4:25 pm

Nobody home-schools for all the wrong reasons. People may cart their kids off to public schools for all the wrong reasons (its easy, it's the way it's done, I need to work to support our chosen lifestyle/pursue my career, ...), but the people who take the time to oversee their children's education personally do it from a standpoint of personal conviction, and because they care about what is being put into their children impressionable minds--they care about where the next generation is going. Then you have people who just put their brats on the bus and then whine about the state of public education in our country...

Top Gun wrote:... but there is a huge issue in that the majority of people out there aren't qualified to personally educate their children ...

That's not an issue, it's the reason for all of the resources available to homeschooling parents (education textbooks and tools), as well as groups that serve to encourage, reinforce, and bridge the educational gaps. Then of course there is always college-level education or vocational training one can pursue away from home.

It would do this country a world of good if education standards in public schools were on par with the home-schooling movement.

P.S. The numbers in the studies CUDA linked are not "encouraging", these levels of performance from home-schoolers are old ****ing news.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Sun May 06, 2012 4:49 pm

Top Gun wrote:but there is a huge issue in that the majority of people out there aren't qualified to personally educate their children,

And this is different from the public school system how?????