The "fifth" force of nature

[flip]

I've been doing a lot of study on this lately, and I very well think that 'sound' frequency could be that force.
It all started after seeing this and how a tone generator creates distinct geometric shapes, each more complex as the frequency rises.

[youtube]YedgubRZva8[/youtube]

I started wondering how things have reached equilibrium and everything is held in it's place which led me to the "music of the spheres." and wave theory.

"The proton is made out of (subatomic particles of) positive frequencies. The electron is made out of negative frequencies. The neutron is a proton with an electron spinning in its center. The neutron thus acquires the characteristics of an equilibrium atomic particle. All three atomic particles emit their corresponding FFC to propagate their charge. Just like negative and positive photons attract, so do their negative and positive FFC attract as well. Just like their parent photons, negative and positive FFC have opposite spin."

Then I noticed how the Pythagorean theorem perfectly correlates to the Circle of Fifth's and all things combined I believe that it is this "music of the spheres" that combines with the other 4 forces of nature to hold everything in it's place. So sound would actually be the "fifth" force of nature.

"There is geometry in the humming of the strings.
There is music in the spacing of the spheres." Pythagoras

[vision]

I think you need more math and physics training.

[flip]

Na, I'll just wait for your conclusions, then show you how it all fits together

[Top Gun]

...yeah I'm not even going to bother.

[flip]

Are you trying to say that sound has no contributing factor at all? Surely it fits into the grand scheme of things somewhere. Everything in the Universe emits a certain pitch, every sphere in rotation emits pitch. Even down to subatomic frequency. When 2 waves 180 degrees out of phase meet, they seem to cancel each other out in that particular point in space and time, yet continue on as if totally unaffected. Frequency and resonance are forces all to themselves, they must be involved somehow.
[youtube]17tqXgvCN0E[/youtube]

Yet I do agree with both of you on one account, 99% of all your responses to any discussion on this board are condescending and demeaning in nature and tone. Neither one have the mental capacity to have an interesting discussion about interesting things without turning it into some kind of circle jerk, so no neither one of you are invited to participate in my thread.

EDIT: It looks like when an object is subjected to it's resonant frequency, it creates a dissonance of harmony on it's atomic level. Causing the atomic bonds in that structure to lose their equilibrium and eventually separate. Cool Huh?

[Pumo]

There's jus a small thing to consider:
Sound is an oscillating pressure on the atmosphere or other medium like a liquid, it cannot exist sound in space (where there's no atmosphere) nor in a vacuum, as an example.

On the other hand, particles are an integral part of the entire universe, so they exist even when there is no medium for the sound to exist, so...

Although it may be you're talking about sound in a figurative manner, as a way to refer to the oscillations and waving in physics in general, including on energy, matter, etc, not exactly real 'sound'?

[Foil]

Flip, you're confusing forces and effects.

Do some study on wave dynamics - you'll find that under all kinds of forces and wave types, there are nodes where the wave does not move the medium (e.g. the patterns in your picture, or the way sound-cancelling headphones work). This is a normal effect of wave dynamics, not evidence of a new force.

Same with resonance; it's an effect caused by waves and known structural forces (e.g. atomic bonds). It's not evidence of a new unknown force.

If you really want to know about this stuff, I'd suggest going and taking some college courses in physics/math. You'll get much better results than these scattered ideas.

[flip]

yes. Not exactly sound that we can physically hear, I just use that to simplify the concept as much as possible and that is exactly what I'm talking about, sub-atomic frequency and pitch. 2 Particles spinning in opposite directions, both emitting a certain pitch through which there is an attraction. Although, physical sound can disrupt that attraction. I've watched several videos on "music of the spheres" and each different structure creates and sends out it's own particular 'sound' that we can listen to. It just makes you wonder about a perfect harmony throughout the Universe that cause everything to reach and maintain equilibrium, through the help of these 'sound' waves. I would love to hear all these different structures as one, like a big orchestra, but I have yet to find anything like that.

I find it very interesting that Phi, The Golden Spiral, Pythagoreans theorem.....etc, all correspond perfectly to musical pitch as shown in the Circle of Fifths. I just can't help but think that this relation carries all the way through on a cosmological scale, with pitch and frequency being integral forces of equilibrium.

EDIT: Foil, I can tell that at certain ratios and frequencies that sound itself exerts a force disturbing to atomic bonds and able to move a medium into certain geometric shapes. I can't help but think it's an integral force, somehow. In fact it's not a new idea at all, just completely dismissed by academia for some reason.

EDIT: I guess I should have been more specific, but I wanted to find the correlation between what we can physically hear and electromagnetic radio waves. All just part of the very same spectrum.

[flip]

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration which holds the atom together." Max Planck

It is the source and harmony of these "vibrations" I am talking about.

EDIT: I see, yeah I never said anything about an unknown force. That is an idea of current academia to further help explain the supposed existence of the as of yet elusive "dark matter" concept. I am talking about waves as a unaccounted for force of equilibrium and stability.

[Spidey]

Sounds something like string theory, with the wrong terminologies.

[Tunnelcat]

Those are the patterns made by the nodal and anti-nodal wave interactions.

[flip]

That's probably true Spidey, lol!
Yes TC, and those nodal and anti-nodal interactions consistently produce geometric shapes. It has to have something to do with the perfect geometry that exists in nature. I'll go and peruse both of the ideas. Thanks!

[vision]

It just makes you wonder about a perfect harmony throughout the Universe that cause everything to reach and maintain equilibrium, through the help of these 'sound' waves.

This the second time you mentioned perfect harmony and equilibrium in the universe. What universe are you living in? Because all the best theories in this universe point to a terribly uneven and chaotic world where stars are exploding, black holes are ripping things to shreds, gamma ray jets are tearing through galaxies, etc... Yes, the universe might reach a cold fog of equilibrium after all the stars have burned out and all that is left is evaporating black holes -- but that won't be for another 100 billion years and no one will be around to enjoy it.

...all correspond perfectly to musical pitch as shown in the Circle of Fifths. I just can't help but think that this relation carries all the way through on a cosmological scale, with pitch and frequency being integral forces of equilibrium.

In addition to math and physics you might want to learn about music too. As it turns out, all those mathematically perfect frequencies sound pretty awful to the human ear. To make things sound "in tune" we need to adjust them up or down. Sorry Pythagoras!

I can tell that at certain ratios and frequencies that sound itself exerts a force disturbing to atomic bonds and able to move a medium into certain geometric shapes.

Wait, sound waves are a source of ionizing radiation now? Holy crap! Call the White House!

I guess I should have been more specific, but I wanted to find the correlation between what we can physically hear and electromagnetic radio waves. All just part of the very same spectrum.

Actually, no. Totally different things. Different type of wave, different physics altogether. Sorry.

[Foil]

I can't help but think it's an integral force, somehow. In fact it's not a new idea at all, just completely dismissed by academia for some reason.

It's not "dismissed by academia", flip. In fact, scientists love this stuff, and it's very simple to explain.

Again, just look up "nodes" in wave dynamics. It's right there.

[Foil]

I guess I should have been more specific, but I wanted to find the correlation between what we can physically hear and electromagnetic radio waves. All just part of the very same spectrum.

Actually, no. Totally different things. Different type of wave, different physics altogether. Sorry.

Vision is correct here, flip.

The spectrum of e/m waves is very, very different from sound waves. It's not the same medium; not even the same wave mechanism.

[flip]

If you will read what I wrote, you will see that I am trying to draw a contrast and correlation between the 2. I realize sound waves are different than electromagnetic waves, jeez! What I am trying to get out is their similar properties and what they share in common. That it is possible that the nodal and anti-nodal properties of radio waves are under the same laws and principles as the nodal and anti-nodal properties of mechanical waves. That it is possible that cosmic radio waves are responsible for maintaining equilibrium just as the tones in the above video are responsible for holding the geometric shapes in the video above. I use that only as a visual aid to demonstrate an abstract concept.

Vision I live in a Universe that has perfect geometric ordering all throughout it. Which one do you live in? I also was not trying to say that those frequencies were pleasing to the ear, Just that they correspond to the Circle of Fifth's.

In the sixth century B.C., the Greek scholar and philosopher Pythagoras decided to try to make things easier for everyone by standardizing, or at least dissecting, musical tuning. He had already discovered pitch frequencies in musical instruments by vibrating different lengths of string, and he had defined what exactly an octave was, so he figured this was the next logical step and created something that is now called the Pythagorean Circle, which eventually led to the more common Circle of Fifths.

Each of the 12 points around the circle was assigned a pitch value. This roughly corresponds to the present system of an octave with 12 half steps. So far, so good.

In mathematical terms, the unit of measure used in his Circle is cents, with 1,200 cents equal to one octave. Each half step, then, is broken up into 100 cents. Western music theorists have since updated Pythagoras's Circle,

The creation and use of the Circle of Fifths is the very foundation of Western music theory. Along with all the technical things the Circle predicts, it's also your best friend in the world in deciphering key signatures on sight. It's just as essential in writing music because its clever design is very helpful in composing and harmonizing melodies, building chords, and moving to different keys within a composition.

Just as Pythagoras had it, the Circle of Fifths is divided up into 12 stops, like the numbers on a clock. Each stop is actually the fifth pitch in the scale of the preceding stop, which is why it's called the Circle of Fifths.

Considering the fact that everything exists on the electromagnetic spectrum somewhere, I can hardly believe that those waves have nothing to do with the ordering of the Universe. Considering every single particle in existence has wave like properties, but if you can't even understand the kind of perfect geometry I'm talking about, of course this conversation is just gonna get screwed over with contention. It may not be 'sound' as you understand it, but then again you only hear in a very limited range

[flip]

Sound is a pressure wave, which consists of a compression phase and a rarefaction phase. A noise-cancellation speaker emits a sound wave with the same amplitude but with inverted phase (also known as antiphase) to the original sound. The waves combine to form a new wave, in a process called interference, and effectively cancel each other out - an effect which is called phase cancellation.

So pressure waves and electromagnetic waves both share phase cancellation as a common property.

[vision]

Considering the fact that everything exists on the electromagnetic spectrum somewhere, I can hardly believe that those waves have nothing to do with the ordering of the Universe. Considering every single particle in existence has wave like properties, but if you can't even understand the kind of perfect geometry I'm talking about, of course this conversation is just gonna get screwed over with contention. It may not be 'sound' as you understand it, but then again you only hear in a very limited range

Now you are just backpedaling. You made an assumption about sound waves (and you really meant sound because you have more than one example and said sound a few times) and now that you see you are wrong you are trying to create a magical property like sound. Pro tip: organize your thoughts and do a little research before you post ridiculous stuff like this. You are connected to the Internet for chrissake! There is so much you can learn. You think you are the first person to imagine <hippie voice> "everything is just waves, man" </hippie voice>?

It might be a bit over your heard, but I bet you would really like the work of David Bohm. I've read a few of his books.

[flip]

Just being the arrogant prick you are. No, I used sound as a great visual aid to try and express and a very complicated and abstract thought I had, and all you wanna do is piss in my face. I know exactly what I was trying to convey, if not exactly how. Waves must have a great impact on structure and those 2 videos were great ways to express that possibility. Instead of participating and letting that idea develop, you, who have demonstrated time and again how much lack of understanding you have about things, wanna be a condescending arrogant prick. At least this time, your learning from Foil as to how it's done. There is definitely a lot to explore there, and I don't read Star Wars fantasy role-playing books

[flip]

The fact of the matter is, there has always been people like you, who ONLY know what you have been taught, and people like me, who try to think outside the box and discover things for myself. Everytime I find the sky is blue, and your the guy with the pitchfork

EDIT: I should have known better than bring this over here. Most you guys don't even know how to get a girlfriend, but you got everything else already figured out. I'm done I guess.

[vision]

The fact of the matter is, there has always been people like you, who ONLY know what you have been taught, and people like me, who try to think outside the box and discover things for myself.

That's great to think outside be box, flip. The problem is, you haven't explored the box yet.

[flip]

Lol, no, I've definitely explored the box

[Tunnelcat]

Wrap your mind around this article flip. It nicely explains wave nodal modes and what waves do when they're IN PHASE, or OUT OF PHASE. When I water-skied as a child, I used to watch what our boat wake would do as we circled around. Sometimes, the waves would cross or combine IN PHASE and produce some really monster wave peaks in spots, like little water mountains. Kinda fascinating to watch. I never wanted to hit any of those while on skis either. Even those little water mountains would invariably combine right in front of me and make even bigger water mountains. They were killers.

[flip]

Yeah, it makes sense that the things we can observe carry on throughout nature. It may just be that all these emissions are creating a huge energy field, weaker in some spots, stronger in others. Then I begin to think about polarization. I'm gonna go play with my Java applet for awhile

EDIT: Did you happen to watch the video in the Dark Matter thread? There is a definite directional flow.

[flip]

In cosmology, the vacuum energy is one possible explanation for the cosmological constant.[3] A related term is zero-point field, which is the lowest energy state of a particular field.

In cosmology, the cosmological constant (usually denoted by the Greek capital letter lambda: Λ) is equivalent to an energy density in otherwise empty space. It was proposed by Albert Einstein as a modification of his original theory of general relativity to achieve a static universe. Einstein abandoned the concept after the observation of the Hubble redshift indicated that the universe might not be stationary, as he had based his theory on the idea that the universe is unchanging

This fits nicely into what I was thinking a few weeks ago. Supposing the idea of a helical shaped Universe, only because new research has pointed to the possibility of the Universe having a center. If it was helical, having a center but no beginning or end, then Einstein may have been right after all. Maybe what we see as expansion and acceleration is really a huge, unimaginable orbit around a center. It would follow observation. The Earth travels around the Sun, which travels around the center of the Milky way........etc. This convention even follows on the micro scale with electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom.

[flip]

However, the cosmological constant remained a subject of theoretical and empirical interest. Empirically, the onslaught of cosmological data in the past decades strongly suggests that our universe has a positive cosmological constant.[1] The explanation of this small but positive value is an outstanding theoretical challenge

Observations announced in 1998 of distance–redshift relation for Type Ia supernovae[6][7] indicated that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. When combined with measurements of the cosmic microwave background radiation these implied a value of \Omega_{\Lambda} \simeq 0.7,[8] a result which has been supported and refined by more recent measurements. There are other possible causes of an accelerating universe, such as quintessence, but the cosmological constant is in most respects the simplest solution.

[Capm]

The fundamental flaw of your argument flip is that you're trying to express sound as a force - which it can be, by definition, however, you're trying to make it a "force of nature" which are all variations of electro-gravitational forces inherent to the universe which are created by the way matter itself is constructed...

Sound is an effect, which can act as a force when applied to an object, but it is not a "force of nature"

[flip]

Yeah, I should have been a lot more specific I guess. If you will read this post and the Dark Matter one, you will see that I was being figurative and loose with my definition of sound. Not a smart thing to do in this kind of atmosphere. Although, audible sound in the range of human hearing , does share common characteristics with all wave energy itself. That was the correlation I was trying to make. Electromagnetic energy can be translated into sound we hear, but it completely misses the whole point. I just used the tone generator above as a visible and tangible aid to show how wave energy creates geometric form. I've said this over and over, yet somehow everyone keeps trying to go back to literal sound. Go figure. I've said more than once and in 2 different threads now that it was an analogy.

I am just wondering how all these electromagnetic waves across the whole spectrum affect the formation and structure of matter. How the whole spectrum in the void of Space interacts with each other.

Here it is point blank for the hard of understanding. You do realize though that we can actually 'hear' these transmissions emitted throughout the Universe? Again, I just used the above video and figurative use of the word 'sound' to be somewhat clever, my mistake

EDIT: Is there any way to change the name of a topic thread? I don't want to confuse people any more than necessary.

[flip]

The easiest way to say this I guess, is how tone, frequency and pitch work together to create and hold geometric shapes. Not only using sound pressure waves, but also electromagnetic waves and does this immense amount of energy have anything to do with the structure and formation of matter throughout the Universe. Do they create areas of resonance and areas of dissonance throughout the Universe? Do these interactions amplify in certain areas and dampen in others? Are there many different places throughout the Universe that the energy is completely cancelled through Phase Cancellation? Just the fact that audible 'sound' as shown in the above video can form matter into distinct geometric shapes, makes me question all the wave energy being produced in the Universe and it's effect on structure. As I've said before, it's more of a concept at this point, but not easily dismissed either.

[Capm]

These are still not "force of nature"

You're talking about the physical properties of the sound waves and their effects when applied as force against other objects. Just because you can't see a thing with the naked eye, does not mean it doesn't have a physical shape, and this may not be something you had thought about before, but it is well known that all waves have a physical form. If you look at specification sheets for antennas for a wireless AP, you will see they often show two charts of the shape of the wave field as it emanates from the antenna, one from the top, the other from the side. (For example, an omni antenna produces a relatively flat disc or taurus shaped field) What you have in your video is someone simply showcasing the interaction of these physical fields on other matter in a way that reveals the shape of that particular field as it is in that particular plane. (A 2D slice if you will, of a 3d form) Its not "creating" the shape, you're just seeing the shape of the wave field itself.

Again, its still an effect, being applied as force to a number of small objects.

The rest of your question can be answered by the Law that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Energy is not being produced, its all there already in one form or another. "wave energy" is too broad of a term. A Wave is a disturbance or oscillation that travels through space and matter, accompanied by a transfer of energy. Sound waves are a mechanical wave... here, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave I think that will clear a lot of your confusion.

Its not that its just a concept, you have gaps in your knowledge of physics that would normally explain what you're thinking. You need to delve into a good book on the subject, but I think alot of what you're talking about here is explained on that wiki page.

[flip]

Ok, a lot of what you say makes sense, and yes, there are definitely gaps in my understanding. That's why I love Google .
So your saying that this energy field that is produced in space by electromagnetic wave interaction will have no effect on the structure of the matter in the Universe at all?

http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

Electromagnetic radiation can be pictured as waves flowing through space at the speed of light. The waves are not waves of anything substantive, but are ripples in a state of a theoretically defined field. However these waves do carry energy (and momentum), and each wave has a specific direction, frequency and polarization state. Each wave represents a ''propagating mode of the electromagnetic field.''

This is what I saw in that video. It is this that I am talking about. I'm not completely ignorant of electromagnetic wave propagation either, I have studied Ham radio for about 25 years now, but that above video is what caused me to picture this zero-point energy field. Kinda like watching an apple fall to the ground thing.

[flip]

Recent work by Christian Beck at the University of London and Michael Mackey at McGill University may have resolved the 120 order of magnitude problem. In that case dark energy is nothing other than zero-point energy. In Measureability of vacuum fluctuations and dark energy and Electromagnetic dark energy they propose that a phase transition occurs so that zero-point photons below a frequency of about 1.7 THz are gravitationally active whereas above that they are not. If this is the case, then the dark energy problem is solved: dark energy is the low frequency gravitationally active component of zero-point energy.

Yeah, this is what I think. I called it Phase Cancellation, for lack of a better word.

EDIT: Ok, yes, the title of this thread is completely and entirely incorrect. Hehe.

[Capm]

No, electromagnetic waves do have an effect on the environment around them, and vice versa. If this were not the case, you would not have any problems dispersing wireless signals through your house, or from a tower through thick trees and hills to a house. Even the atmosphere itself has an effect on signals. All matter and energy effect all matter and energy, just in different amounts and ways.

[snoopy]

No, electromagnetic waves do have an effect on the environment around them, and vice versa. If this were not the case, you would not have any problems dispersing wireless signals through your house, or from a tower through thick trees and hills to a house. Even the atmosphere itself has an effect on signals. All matter and energy effect all matter and energy, just in different amounts and ways.

Yes. I think it's easiest to understand in the light spectrum.... Every material has a reflection coefficient, an absorption coefficient, and a transmission coefficient. These coefficients are a function of frequency.

Universally, some energy is absorbed by material, some is allowed to pass through, and some is reflected back. You can think of the frequency dependence as colors, transmission as seeing "through" something, something heating up as absorption, and seeing your reflection as reflection. I believe that the only exception is a perfect vacuum, which has zero reflection and zero absorption.

[flip]

Yeah, that's the first thing I thought when I saw that video. Was all of this wave energy dispersed throughout space and how it must have the same effect as we see on that plate somehow. Then I remembered an old antenna book wrote by Lew McCoy I read many years ago. Basically, antenna coordinators have to be careful with the distances at which they erect antenna's, because if a direct wave and a reflected wave arrive at one at the very same time, they will completely cancel each other out. Then Tc's post about wave interaction (nodes/anti-nodes and energy fields) makes this:

In that case dark energy is nothing other than zero-point energy

Completely plausible.

[snoopy]

Yeah, that's the first thing I thought when I saw that video. Was all of this wave energy dispersed throughout space and how it must have the same effect as we see on that plate somehow. Then I remembered an old antenna book wrote by Lew McCoy I read many years ago. Basically, antenna coordinators have to be careful with the distances at which they erect antenna's, because if a direct wave and a reflected wave arrive at one at the very same time, they will completely cancel each other out.

Antennas and wireless communication is my field, so I could talk for days about it with you...

Again, I think the hardest part is the distribution in space as related to wavelength & its change over time. At 1THz, a wavelength is ~0.1in... so your regions can be very densely distributed. I'm not sure what the phase drift is on a star, but phase drift will move the regions in space over time, which could have an effect.

I'll have to think about it a bit more, but at the moment I'm not seeing it.

[flip]

Well, the thing about Phase Cancellation, is that it only happens at that one point when the signals are 180 degrees out of phase. As soon as it passes that point, it continues on as if unaffected. There must be many different places in space that this cancellation exists. I'm mainly curious as how all the background radiation contributes to the perfect cycles, for instance here in our own Solar System. Apparently, this is cutting edge stuff from what I've found on the internet, but the energy traveling on those waves has to be a factor somehow.

[Capm]

I think it depends on what specifically you are talking about. Up to this point, this has been a broad discussion. I'm sure the energy is a factor, but to what degree? You could be looking at effects that take billions of years to manifest.

[flip]

True. Most of what we see beyond physical light is actually seen through radiotelescopes, and to get a clearer picture we are definitely gonna have to start looking much farther up in the spectrum. I guess it remains to be seen to what degree it's effect is altogether. I'm gonna take a few more days looking this stuff over. It was mainly just a flash in the pan idea, an image in my mind, but this energy being carried by these waves is going to end up playing as big a part as gravity does is my assumption. I think these interactions on a very big scale could very well be this essential, but elusive Dark Energy we see causing expansion. Then again, there is recent evidence to support a truly physical center of the Universe, so just on that merit models would have to be refined. If there is a center, then what we see as expansion could be rotation around that center. That's besides the point right now though. Who knows how many years before we can actually map the whole spectrum of electromagnetic energy in just our own Local Universe.

[flip]

I am so wanting the Universe to end up looking just like this:

but with distinct colors for each division of the complete electromagnetic spectrum. Who knows though at this point, but the Golden Spiral would be perfect. It has a physical center, but no beginning or end.

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/42 ... lack-hole/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wavy.gif

Gravitational waves are not under the same limitations as electromagnetic.