Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Descent mission help and more WARNING: Spoilers inside!

Moderator: AceCombat

Post Reply
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

What do you think if some very skilled player like say, Spooty was convinced to do a quite specific, handicapped run of D2: Counterstrike? The idea being: only D1 armament is allowed.

This could allow us to compare directly the difficulty curves between the two games - D2 is obviously much easier with all the crazy weaponry available to you. But what if you could use only Smarts and Megas, but no Guided or Earthshakers? No Gauss, no Helix.

Of course we know many of the D1 weapons were nerfed in D2, most notably Fusion. But we could provide a DXA file with D1,5.HAM inside to the player, which would un-nerf all D1 weaponry. Fusion and Megas in D2 are available as early as level 4 and then ubiquitous afterwards, so the player would probably have more than enough for their needs. The final boss would obviously be a problem, but Smart Missiles or simply flying behind him while cloaked should do the trick anyway. The only thing needed would be D2X-XL's function which allows the use of regular Lasers even when Super Lasers have been picked up, as the vainlla game or Rebirth don't allow that.

What do you think about this, would you be interested in watching a LP like this?
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
Calmarius
DBB Cadet
DBB Cadet
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:19 pm

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Calmarius »

It depends on the difficulty setting... On insane difficulty I needed to score 6 direct hits with Earthshakers into the final boss' back to destroy it. This means damage from the main blast and all separation blobs once... Six times... I'm not sure if unloading your entire load of smarts and megas directly on its back can finish it on insane...

It's a different story on lower difficulty. But I always play on insane difficulty.
Insane difficulty, cold start, no death, full rescue, 100+ HP at exit.
User avatar
Lothar
DBB Ghost Admin
DBB Ghost Admin
Posts: 12133
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: I'm so glad to be home
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Lothar »

Xfing wrote:But we could provide a DXA file with D1,5.HAM inside to the player, which would un-nerf all D1 weaponry..... The only thing needed would be D2X-XL's function which allows the use of regular Lasers even when Super Lasers have been picked up, as the vainlla game or Rebirth don't allow that.
"Un-nerf the D1 weapons" is a setting in Retro (which also sets super lasers to use the D1 laser level 4 values). I don't know if it's available in single player, but it certainly could be made into a SP switch.

It might also be possible to replace the D2 weapons with their D1 equivalents, so that at least you'd have the same amount of ammo (though I think I might make mercs into homers rather than smarts.)
Izchak says: 'slow down. Think clearly.'
April Fools Day is the one day of the year that people critically evaluate news articles before accepting them as true.
User avatar
RetroChallengeGamer
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by RetroChallengeGamer »

This was exactly the challenge I had in mind for Counterstrike. But I'm currently not planning on doing that run this year, probably next year. However, if someone beats me to the punch of that challenge, I'll have to think up another one. :|
User avatar
Avder
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4926
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Moorhead, MN

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Avder »

If you're gonna do D2 with D1 weaponry, should probably leave the D1 arsenal nerfed. Otherwise it's not that big of a difference in firepower.

Also the difference in D1 Q4 vs D2 Q6 is 52 vs 50 iirc. Plasma still does the same. The challenge is in the fact that lasers are now your biggest damage dealer, no gauss means you can't bullseye stuff like spawns as easily, and no omega cannon means those little pests are even more of a nuisance at short range.

And as mentioned, the final boss is going to be one hell of a fight if you are limited to smarts and cloaked shots. I'm pretty sure fusion literally bounces right off, so you can't shoot that through him.
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

Avder wrote:If you're gonna do D2 with D1 weaponry, should probably leave the D1 arsenal nerfed. Otherwise it's not that big of a difference in firepower.

Also the difference in D1 Q4 vs D2 Q6 is 52 vs 50 iirc. Plasma still does the same. The challenge is in the fact that lasers are now your biggest damage dealer, no gauss means you can't bullseye stuff like spawns as easily, and no omega cannon means those little pests are even more of a nuisance at short range.

And as mentioned, the final boss is going to be one hell of a fight if you are limited to smarts and cloaked shots. I'm pretty sure fusion literally bounces right off, so you can't shoot that through him.
Actually fusion does go through him and I think it does cause the damage, but he's got a defense mechanism to discourage that - when fired upon with Fusion, he fires back like 15 or so blobs. And it's quite founded IMO, as I'm sure many a pilot thought they could cheat the requirement of getting him from behind by using Fusion.

Not that Fusion does any real damage in D2 though, lol
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
User avatar
Sirius
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5616
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Sirius »

Did the Parallax guys ever say whether that was intended or just an oversight? I could kind of see it going either way.
User avatar
RetroChallengeGamer
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by RetroChallengeGamer »

Regardless if it was intended, if Fusion is a legit way to get at his back at all times, I just might consider the challenge since it would make it easier once I inevitably run out of smart missiles.
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

RetroChallengeGamer wrote:Regardless if it was intended, if Fusion is a legit way to get at his back at all times, I just might consider the challenge since it would make it easier once I inevitably run out of smart missiles.
You could try and see if shooting him with Fusion for an extended period of time does kill him in the end. Just for the hell of it, you could even be invulnerable while doing this. I'm curious :P
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
Calmarius
DBB Cadet
DBB Cadet
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:19 pm

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Calmarius »

As far as I know the final boss is completely immune to energy weapons.
Insane difficulty, cold start, no death, full rescue, 100+ HP at exit.
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

Calmarius wrote:As far as I know the final boss is completely immune to energy weapons.
Not when they're fired into his back. I remember finishing him off with Helix, as it's possible to stay orientated towards his back with some skillful flying due to his manageable turning rate.
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
User avatar
Avder
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4926
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Moorhead, MN

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Avder »

Calmarius wrote:As far as I know the final boss is completely immune to energy weapons.
Boss immunities are a pain in the ass at some points in D2.

The level 20 boss is immune to impact weapons I believe. The only thing guass and missiles do, if I recall, is make him spawn in cloaked lifters or something.

Smart missiles and smart mines work tho, thanks to their blobs being energy based.
User avatar
Jeff250
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 6511
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 1999 2:01 am
Location: ❄️❄️❄️

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Jeff250 »

I remember once, running out of earthshakers, finishing the final boss off with smart missiles, whose blobs are energy-based. (This was on Descent Maximum, where they don't give you nearly the same number of earthshakers across the campaign.)
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

Jeff250 wrote:I remember once, running out of earthshakers, finishing the final boss off with smart missiles, whose blobs are energy-based. (This was on Descent Maximum, where they don't give you nearly the same number of earthshakers across the campaign.)
Same. That in addition to simply shooting him in the back with energy weapons. He is vulnerable to any kind of weapon, only in the back :P
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
User avatar
LightWolf
DBB Captain
DBB Captain
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:27 pm
Location: Yes

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by LightWolf »

Boss AI: (Immunities)

Zeta Aquilae: None
Quartzon: None
Brimspark: Energy
Limefrost Spiral: Energy
Baloris Prime: Matter
Tycho Brahe: Weak Spot On Back

You cannot use a given weapon type on a boss with that weapon type listed.
Whatever I just said, I hope you understood it correctly. Understood what I meant, I mean.
#AllLivesMatter
User avatar
Avder
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4926
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Moorhead, MN

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Avder »

Hm, I never actually knew the level 12 boss had an immunity to energy.
User avatar
Alter-Fox
The Feline Menace
Posts: 3164
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: the realms of theory
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Alter-Fox »

Yep.
I bet with armor like that he doesn't get many mosquito bites. /me is insanely jealous.
And I didn't know the final boss was immune to the weak spot on his back. I thought that was a vulnerability. :D :lol:
Ship's cat, MPSV Iberia: beware of cat.
...
Beware my original music, at http://soundcloud.com/snowfoxden.
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

We'll be shuffling and mixing up those vulnerabilities in D1,5 to catch players off-guard. We'll justify it by the "alien virus learning, adapting and trying new configurations" or some schmuck like that :P
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
User avatar
Alter-Fox
The Feline Menace
Posts: 3164
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: the realms of theory
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Alter-Fox »

I'm ok doing that with bosses, I don't like modifying the standard bots. Which you're not doing except for restoring the sounds, so that's fine. You know some of the bosses were meant to have their own death sounds in the game's files?
Will make it interesting to play the mission set with the hxms removed after I'm done it the first time. A lot of missions with custom bots I sometimes play like that.
Ship's cat, MPSV Iberia: beware of cat.
...
Beware my original music, at http://soundcloud.com/snowfoxden.
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

Alter-Fox wrote:I'm ok doing that with bosses, I don't like modifying the standard bots. Which you're not doing except for restoring the sounds, so that's fine. You know some of the bosses were meant to have their own death sounds in the game's files?
Will make it interesting to play the mission set with the hxms removed after I'm done it the first time. A lot of missions with custom bots I sometimes play like that.
Well removing the HXMs will change nothing at all except the restored sounds for the D1 robots, so there's not much point in doing that... I also like when stuff's as close as possible to vanilla, the bosses being the one exception, but I feel it's justified.

Also, everything's based on a single HAM file to begin with (another one to account for the Vertigo bosses), not on HXMs. I think it'll be converted into a DXA addon, I heard it works.
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
User avatar
Alter-Fox
The Feline Menace
Posts: 3164
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: the realms of theory
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Alter-Fox »

Aah, so it'll need a mods folder...
And playing it without the HAM for some replay value would be even easier. :D
Ship's cat, MPSV Iberia: beware of cat.
...
Beware my original music, at http://soundcloud.com/snowfoxden.
User avatar
LightWolf
DBB Captain
DBB Captain
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:27 pm
Location: Yes

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by LightWolf »

If you need help with new boss immunites, I'm available...
Whatever I just said, I hope you understood it correctly. Understood what I meant, I mean.
#AllLivesMatter
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Xfing »

LightWolf wrote:If you need help with new boss immunites, I'm available...
Those have already been scripted and are ready to go. Not sure what kind of help you were offering tbh :D
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 52/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
Calmarius
DBB Cadet
DBB Cadet
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:19 pm

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Calmarius »

Jeff250 wrote:I remember once, running out of earthshakers, finishing the final boss off with smart missiles, whose blobs are energy-based. (This was on Descent Maximum, where they don't give you nearly the same number of earthshakers across the campaign.)
Indeed I was wrong.

I tried to use energy weapons against the final boss on insane difficulty while the invulnerability cheat was on. On that skill level the boss has a so high HP, that 100 energy isn't enough to kill it, I thought he is immune to energy.
Insane difficulty, cold start, no death, full rescue, 100+ HP at exit.
User avatar
Alter-Fox
The Feline Menace
Posts: 3164
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: the realms of theory
Contact:

Re: Idea for a Counterstrike playthrough

Post by Alter-Fox »

Yep I've done him in with omega cannon when my shakers ran out.
If you're cloaked it works surprisingly well even on the higher difficulties.

Phoenix cannon's trickier but I've made it work too.
Ship's cat, MPSV Iberia: beware of cat.
...
Beware my original music, at http://soundcloud.com/snowfoxden.
Post Reply