On the other side of the coin

[Sergeant Thorne]

And a comment on Slick and Ferno talking about TC's perception: statistically I'm sure you guys are right, but I think you also might be speaking from a somewhat guarded experience. The statistics would only reflect an overall picture. The fact is there are places where what TC is saying is absolutely right on. I live in what used to be a very nice neighborhood, but over the years it has steadily turned into not such a nice neighborhood on the surface, and an absolute refuse heap under the surface. I'm sure there are still high-priced areas maintaining a very nice atmosphere (I hear the present administration is working to solve this), and gated communities where people can share your outlook, but pray you don't live near government housing, or find the worthless people from neighboring cities migrating to your $40,000-$80,000 neighborhood. There is basically a network of friendly folks in the neighborhood involved in drug deals with outside suppliers, serial theft (even home robbery), and information peddling (watch who you talk to--some are involved, and some are just overly friendly with others who are). I've seen elaborate pick-ups and drop-offs, miraculous police evasion, and people coming over to find out what we know. The mayor almost had his bike taken from him at the opposite end of my block several years back... dammit why does this stuff always happen when I'm not around. My dad overheard a neighbor talking with some visitor about robbing our house.

There are some nice people in this neighborhood. The problem is nice people also have a tendency to be naive, or willfully naive, complacent and cowardly. The police are awesome around here, but when so many people are involved to various degrees it almost seems like a losing battle.

You could walk through my neighborhood and get a friendly smile from almost everyone in return for the same, and you could go on your way confident in humanity, but in a different context your safety could be threatened, and if you lived in or nearby you could be targeted. I can drive for ~5 minutes in most directions and find neighborhoods that are worse than mine.

[Ferno]

And a comment on Slick and Ferno talking about TC's perception: statistically I'm sure you guys are right, but I think you also might be speaking from a somewhat guarded experience.

Guarded? bud, I went through a special version of hell. Nothing guarded here. I just know what a real threat looks like.

[callmeslick]

my response? I spent time in places most outside observers would be frightened to go near, yet found the overwhelming majority of the residents to be normal people, with normal dreams and hopes, working as best they can to fulfill them. Even in 'bad' neighborhoods, the good people vastly outnumber the bad, and as ever, the outright crazies are a very small percentage.

Thorne, what you are describing is what happens when an illicit economy is the only game in town, and that isn't a matter of scary violence, but quiet desperation. Nothing in your story, to me, in any way justifies carrying a gun around, nor the absolute need for one in the home( as I said, and I base this from talks with actual thieves, a dog works far better if you want to be safe, as opposed to being a vigilante or self-proclaimed 'hero')

[woodchip]

Wow slick, you just have been everywhere and done everything so of course you are right. For a man who doesn't want to take up my bet because of the odds, you sure sing a different tune when it comes to your anti-gun diatribes. Then again you may be right as I'm sure you know loads of thieves to base your opinion on.

[callmeslick]

Wow slick, you just have been everywhere and done everything so of course you are right. For a man who doesn't want to take up my bet because of the odds, you sure sing a different tune when it comes to your anti-gun diatribes. Then again you may be right as I'm sure you know loads of thieves to base your opinion on.

hell, I used to be in a regular card game with a house burgler and a drug-store cowboy. I am pretty tight with a biker 'club' that steals and resells weaponry. I know enough good people, too, and whether it is a tony community like this one in Delaware, a small rural town like my home in VA, or any major city in the East(I've been in the 'bad' sections of most of them), I'll stick to my assertion: most, by far, of the people you encounter have ZERO reason to be a threat to you. Period.

[woodchip]

Not worried about most, just those 266k.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I'll concede that, slick. I find all of that to be believable. As for the gun part, I disagree with that. Home burglary is actually plenty of reason to own a gun. A dog is certainly better in the scenarios we're talking about. I agree with you there. Unfortunately dogs can be poisoned to take them out of the picture (happened to a friend of mine).

As for illicit economy more than violence, you're certainly right there. The question, in my mind, is where does the one cross into the other, assuming my efforts are hurting their economy. As far as I can tell this isn't amateur stuff--even though the people in my immediate neighborhood certain aren't themselves heavy hitters. If I give a few tips to the police, and as a result someone looses a few thousand dollars worth of "merchandise", I could very well find myself the target of premeditated violence. I think you're willing to be more "understanding" with these people than I am. I don't associate with people who involve themselves in activities that harm other people. I'm the kind of person that actively resists them, and that certainly does make me more likely to encounter violence.

I don't appreciate your "only game in town" comment. That's nothing but an excuse. Everyone has a choice.

[callmeslick]

correct me, if my memory is feeble, Thorne.......you live in Indiana? If so, the 'professionals' are mostly either in Mexico, Chicago, Colombia or Naples. Everyone else is just a pawn in a really big game.

[woodchip]

Now slick is the board maven on inside the crime world. I suppose your assertions that you hob knob with criminals makes us respect you. Too bad Will Kill doesn't post here anymore.

[callmeslick]

hell, most of those contacts go back a few decades....and yes, I've maintained a few friendships among them. Don't really give a ★■◆● what you or some clown I never knew from the board think or would think.

[woodchip]

The way you keep trying to influence on gun ownership shows that you do care.

[callmeslick]

another fine reason to buy a handgun! To threaten potential customers(not the first time, it turns out). Bigotry, stupidity and handguns....the American Way!
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/bar ... li=BBnb7Kz

[woodchip]

Another meaningless post off set by thousands of cases where people saved themselves. Stop being a troll.

[Tunnelcat]

Depressed? well that sucks. sorry to hear and at least you were able to vent a bit. always good in my book. But try to remember that what you see on the news is a very very small sliver of what's going on in the country, and keep in mind what I said about the perceived threat outweighing the real threat.

Venting is always great for the soul, especially after having to deal with a new and now broken piece of junk expensive dishwasher and a bunch of other BS in my life, but I won't go there. But that doesn't change the reality that this country seems like it's going down the toilet and that people are getting more and more...I don't know, arrogant, uncouth, violent and self-centered? Maybe it's because there are more people around nowadays. Maybe it's because I'm looking through the lens of old age and I've forgotten the crap that went on when I was younger, but who knows? My grandparents said the same to me thing back when I was a kid, so perhaps that's it. My age tarnished glasses have tinged my vision and that our nation's problems have always existed in some form or another, not any worse and not any better, and that as each generation ages, they tend to think that society's problems are constantly getting worse. However, after all that, I would still shoot an intruder who broke into my home and tried to attack me. Full stop. That's why I purchased a gun years ago when I used to live in a rural isolated area and my husband went off to work, leaving me home alone. Maybe that makes me callus towards humanity, but the world can be a pretty inhumane place anyway.

And a comment on Slick and Ferno talking about TC's perception: statistically I'm sure you guys are right, but I think you also might be speaking from a somewhat guarded experience. The statistics would only reflect an overall picture. The fact is there are places where what TC is saying is absolutely right on. I live in what used to be a very nice neighborhood, but over the years it has steadily turned into not such a nice neighborhood on the surface, and an absolute refuse heap under the surface. I'm sure there are still high-priced areas maintaining a very nice atmosphere (I hear the present administration is working to solve this), and gated communities where people can share your outlook, but pray you don't live near government housing, or find the worthless people from neighboring cities migrating to your $40,000-$80,000 neighborhood. There is basically a network of friendly folks in the neighborhood involved in drug deals with outside suppliers, serial theft (even home robbery), and information peddling (watch who you talk to--some are involved, and some are just overly friendly with others who are). I've seen elaborate pick-ups and drop-offs, miraculous police evasion, and people coming over to find out what we know. The mayor almost had his bike taken from him at the opposite end of my block several years back... dammit why does this stuff always happen when I'm not around. My dad overheard a neighbor talking with some visitor about robbing our house.

Yeah, speaking of neighborhoods going into the toilet, my grandfather had an awful experience. My grandmother one day had a serious heart attack and passed away suddenly. My grandfather was grief stricken. He didn't even want to stay living the same nice house they had near Forest Park in Portland. He wanted to move away from her memories and the house that contained them. Big mistake. I tried to dissuade him, but he wouldn't have any of it. He sold his old house in that nice rural quiet middle class neighborhood and bought a little renovated house in a newly renovated old subdivision. At first, it was a nice little area with nice little houses and nice neighbors. But since the subdivision was located near the Portland International Raceway, it was noisy and surrounded by not-so-great run down neighborhoods nearby. It didn't take long for the nice people to move out and the trash to move in. Almost all of the original owners soon fled. What soon took over were buyers who rented out the some of the houses for cheap and didn't care who they rented to, along with a bunch of abandoned houses. Cheap renters and squatters soon turned the place into a drug dealing and burglary den. The nice common area rotted. It only took 2 years to happen too. I think he realized too late the mistake he'd made. It really depressed him too. He could never recoup the money he'd plunked down for the house either. It had lost 80% if it's value. It would bankrupt him to move. Then one day, he found out he had some type of sickness he thought was cancer. The next week, it all got to be too much for him to deal with, so one night, he shot himself. I don't know how much the neighborhood situation he lived in made things worse, but I think it contributed quite a bit to his decision to end his life. Such is the state of affairs in the good old U.S. of A.

[Ferno]

TC, the fact is, the bs doesn't ramp up as time goes on, it just changes. We're all used to our bs and we don't pay attention to it after a while, but we love to talk about how much BS the 'younger generation' is pushing.

It doesn't increase, it's just different.

You mentioned rural areas. You lived on a farm? I personally believe living on farmland is about the best place to be, safety wise. Sit outside during the summer on your favourite chair on the porch, front door wide open and watch the day go by with a nice cold drink in hand. You might need a gun to deal with the coyotes and wolves around the area... but people? Nah. Almost no one comes out to the farm, not unless they're in a truck. They're usually in the city.

[Tunnelcat]

Yeah, you're probably right. Every generation gripes about how the olden days were better. I've fallen victim to that one. I've become my grandmother.

As to the rural area I lived in, it was the worst of both city and rural combinations. It was a rural suburban area where there was just enough isolation and vegetation that people could, and would, get away with all sorts of nefarious BS because the neighbors couldn't see what was going on. I wasn't close enough physically to be friends with any of my neighbors and I was separated far enough from them to be a target of thieves or other unsavory characters. In other words, there were too many people around with too much vegetation combined with not enough police or neighborly eyeballs to help watch out for the crap that typically went on, even during the day. I've also found that in these suburban rural areas, people tend not to watch or keep track of what their teen-aged kids do at night, so they tended to carouse or prowl around looking for trouble to get into and an isolated house was a great opportunity, if they thought no one was at home. I wouldn't live in such an area again if you paid me. It's either live in the city, or way out in the sticks owning a big dog for me from now on.