Raising the Driving Age

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Dakatsu
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Raising the Driving Age

Post by Dakatsu »

So, apparently some group wants to raise the driving age:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... /1012/news
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety today is releasing a report encouraging higher driving ages at a conference of the Governors Highway Safety Association in Scottsdale, Ariz. The institute notes that most of Europe as well as China, Japan, Russia and Brazil allow people to start driving at age 18. The agency, funded by the insurance industry, says several U.S. states have tried but failed to boost the age to 17 or 18.
I, for one, think this is a dumbass idea. I am not affected, as I would have my license by then (and I would be sure I would be grandfathered in), but raising the driving age would only have drivers learn how to drive at an older age. If we were to raise the driving age to 30, chances are these first-time drivers would not be too good at driving either.

Admittedly, my age group has problems with texting (I hate texting, myself) and other distractions in the vehicle, but the longer we are on the road, the more we learn. Maturity can come with age, but more often than not it has to do with the individual. Give out large fines and tickets for these problems, and take away licenses for these problems, but raising the age solves nothing, except for pissing off a lot of kids.

Funny thing is, this is being pushed forward by an Insurance-Industry backed group. Wonder where the motive came from?
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Post by Canuck »

I think 18 is a too long to wait to drive. Back in 1967 I was 4 years old and my Dad woke me up one early morning to accompany him on a trip to Regina. I was excited as I loved cars and being on the open road even at that young age. As we got out of Town my Dad pulled over and asked if I wanted to drive, I said YES of course and he propped me up on some pillows we had along and gave me the lowdown on driving the car. He would have to operate the brakes and accelerator as I couldn't reach them yet and we worked out a nudging system for passing, gas, and brakes as he would be sleeping :P I drove to Regina more than once with my Father fast asleep in the passenger side. I still remember the nudges for passing and brakes and one particular man's reaction when I passed him. He had to do a double take as he saw a little boy driving a '63 Chevy Impala with the Father fast asleep in the passenger side. I was also trained how to crack open beers on the bottom of the metal dash and the proper ways to keep the bottle below dash level so the Law doesn't see it. When I was 14 my Dad made me drive a 1957 Dump Truck across the City, through downtown, to the train yards to pick up two train cars full of Plaster of Paris for his business. I had no training this time and had to learn about standards, split axles, and double shifting on the fly. I went about two weeks before my Mom caught me and he had to hire a goof that ended up claiming compensation after one days work. By the time I got to High School driving was pretty easy for me and the novelty had worn off so. I was well aware of the idiots on the road and had been dealing with them for a while now. Waiting till your 18 means the kid is going to be pumped up with hormones, raring to go and not aware or even caring about the pitfalls out there. Here if you are 15 and pass a high school driving course you get a learner's permit that allows you to drive with a licensed driver. By the time they are 18 they are very aware of the road, and accidents with these groups are usually way lower than those that have started driving with no school. I have seen kids texting while they are driving and have dodged a few teens now that aren't paying attention. Its scary as most seem oblivious to the fact they almost died or could have killed someone. I swear if someone hit me while texting they would have to get their phone surgically removed from their arse. And the insurance agency's motive is money.
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Post by Testiculese »

PA changed to 18. I support it, kids at 16 are stupid behind the wheel. They should get driver's ed, a permit, and such at 16, however, and they can practice at school and with parents for two years.

The system as it stood was, you turn 16, you take a crappy little test (that apparently only 1 out of 1000 drivers remember anything in it) got your permit, drove for a week with your parents (who were undoubtedly one of the 999) and then took a completely unrealistic course and BAM, now they have a license.
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Post by Lothar »

16 year olds are, almost universally, bad drivers. Partly this is inexperience. Partly it's bad judgment and decision-making. Partly it's that their idiot friends in the car tend to be rowdy and distracting. All of it leads to ridiculously high fatality rates for teen drivers, even excluding drug and alcohol related deaths.

I'm not sure if I'd go all the way to a change of drivers license to 18, but I do like the restricted licenses some states have put out. Limits on the number of passengers (particularly other teens) and the times of day teens can drive REALLY cuts down on certain dangerous situations. I also like the fact that some states require you to have a certain amount of driving time with your parents before you can even test for your license; granted, some parents will cheat on this, but there's still some effect from those parents who at least make an effort.
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Post by flip »

I'm for it myself. I've got 4 kids my oldest being 14. Back when I started driving there weren't near as many people on the road as now. My parents, seeing that I was wild as a buck when I was 16, made me wait until I was 18 to get my license. I drove anyways but that's besides the point. If you don't have enough sense to be careful by the time your 18, well go kill yourself.
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Re: Raising the Driving Age

Post by Foil »

Dakatsu wrote:Funny thing is, this is being pushed forward by an Insurance-Industry backed group. Wonder where the motive came from?
Q. The insurance industry stands to lose a lot of 16/17-year-old customers if this happens... so why would they push this?

A. From their own data, the insurance companies know that the cost of life and property damage from 16/17-year-old drivers outweighs the cost of losing 16/17-year-old customers. (I.e. 16/17-year-olds are too high a risk to continue to insure.)

-------------

It's a similar issue for elderly drivers, too. I used to work for an insurance company; I've seen the data. The loss rates spike way up at both ends of the age spectrum.
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Post by fliptw »

graduated licensing is good, I think they need to also put restrictions on the power of cars for teens while they are getting their licenses.
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Post by Dakatsu »

Huh? I thought all states had graduated licensing. I currently have my learners permit, and I have to wait a year to get my full license (despite me being 16 Jan 9, I got it April 1, so I have to wait till then). Even then, until I am 18 I can't drive after certain times. I like this system, I thought that all states had this or something similar :?

I still think the main thing is experience on the road, we lack experience, and therefore are more prone to mistakes. If we had the driver's age set at 30, I bet we would have a lot of 30yo people in accidents, because they would lack experience driving a car.
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Post by Canuck »

Nooooo! That means I wouldn't have been able to drive my 1970 Olds 442. That thing was fun as stock it had 455 W-30, Hurst dual gate shifter, 3:91 limited slip, variable speed 2,200 rpm torque converter, dual springs on the lifters with dampeners, and a transmission from a 1 ton dump truck because the car ate regular transmissions. Over 510 ft/lbs. torque at 2,700 RPM meant you could literally break the rear tires loose at highway speeds when you mashed the pedal to the floor. I even beat some big street bikes from a standing stop because they blew a shift or didn't know how to drive. After I hopped it up I got transfered to a new Province so I had to garage it and my brother-in-law ended up buying it years later.
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Post by Lothar »

Dakatsu wrote:I still think the main thing is experience on the road
I'd split it between experience and distraction. Teens aren't real good at controlling their cars yet, AND they tend to have a lot of distractions like other teens in the car. So they have a higher tendency to get into bad situations, and a lower ability to get out of them safely.

Most forms of graduated licensing are targeted both at reducing distraction and at keeping teens out of situations that are inherently more dangerous, like night driving. Having a power-to-weight limit on cars could help, too. And having parents who pay attention to their kids' driving habits can make a huge difference.
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Post by flip »

Canuck I'm envious now. :P I had a F85 cutlass with a 330 so the car your driving I always had high hopes to get.
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Post by Spidey »

Waited till 19 to get my license, didn’t bother me one bit.
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Post by Grendel »

Dakatsu wrote:I like this system, I thought that all states had this or something similar :?
Good for your state, not the average tho.
Dakatsu wrote:If we had the driver's age set at 30, I bet we would have a lot of 30yo people in accidents, because they would lack experience driving a car.
Still less than teens in accidents right now. At 30yrs you are a lot more carefull about your surroundings and got an idea what weight in motion means.

Almost all of europe has 18 as the leagal age for aquiring a DL for cars. Works for them. As for parents complaining about having to drive their kids around -- driving certain mopeds is legal in europe at 16yrs.

Driving tests & classes in europe are usually a lot thougher too BTW. I had to drive 45min in a big city and a 1hr written test before that. Both tests can only be taken after a certain amout of instruction & driving lessons.
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Post by Top Wop »

Pushing the driving limit to 18 means that instead of bad drivers at age 16 we now have bad drivers at age 18.

What they should do is enforce the laws and curfews. Or, kinda like the graduated license dealy, between 16 and 18 you get a license, but its only used to drive to school and work. Then you get a regular license at 18. No usage of a cellphone while driving whatsoever, you get caught, you get slapped with a $100+ fine. Repeat accidents means you dont see your license for a long time.

In most states there is probably a sufficient system, not as comprehensive as my idea, but the problem is enforcement. Nobody gives a damn how you drive. But hey, +5 points for wearing that seatbelt! Oh you didnt? Well here's a ticket and your increase in insurance premium, sucka. :roll:
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Post by Krom »

Spidey wrote:Waited till 19 to get my license, didn’t bother me one bit.
x2

In Wisconsin there is a two year probationary period after you get a license where all traffic violations are double points which I cleared perfectly. Get 12 points and its an automatic 6 month suspension, a speeding ticket is worth 3 points on a regular license, 6 on a probationary license. If you get a ticket the probationary period resets, my dad who worked as the clerk of courts ran into people in their 40s who still had probationary licenses.

Also working with kids who recently got their licenses at my old job, almost all of them were horrible drivers, with a couple exceptions. The exceptions were generally quiet and reserved people too, anyone in the "in" crowd usually made a horrible driver. So I came to the conclusion that if you were popular in high school, you would probably be a bad driver. One other thing I noted, the ones that went out and got their license+car on their 16th birthday exactly were the WORST drivers of them all.

My experience led me to the conclusion that generally a lot of people under 20 are irresponsible. So I don't really mind pushing the legal driving age back, although I don't really think it will accomplish anything even if they pushed it back to 21 or older, the vast majority of new drivers out of school are going to be bad drivers period. I was a passenger in enough accidents before I got my license to serve as a constant reminder that driving is not a game.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

I don't support holding off licences until 18 but I do support graduated licencing systems. In B.C. Candada you get a 1 year learners permit at 16 so you are 17 before you drive alone. For the next two years you must display an N on the back of the car you drive, can only have one non family memeber under age 25 in the car and there is zero tolerance for alcohol. Any driving infractions reset the two year \"N\" period and to remove the N you must take a second driving test. So in truth you will be 19 at the earliest before you have an unrestricted licence. 19 also happens to be the age of majority here.
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Post by TechPro »

OK, so I'm jumping into this thread a bit late ... but there's something that really makes me wonder ...

So let me get this straight.
1) A group wants to raise the Driving age (as discussed in this thread)
2) Some higher-education officials want to lower the legal drinking age (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249460/)

Is it just me, or is something really wacked about that? :?
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Post by Dedman »

TechPro wrote:OK, so I'm jumping into this thread a bit late ... but there's something that really makes me wonder ...

So let me get this straight.
1) A group wants to raise the Driving age (as discussed in this thread)
2) Some higher-education officials want to lower the legal drinking age (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249460/)

Is it just me, or is something really wacked about that? :?
I don't think so. In both cases, unless I'm missing something, the magic age is 18, the recognized age of adulthood. I'm all for lowering the drinking age to 18. If a person is considered adult enough to get drafted and die for their country, they should be considered adult enough to legally have a drink.

And I agree that letting KIDS drive at 16 is a bit nuts. Most 16 years olds have the attention span of a fruit fly and not much better judgement.
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Post by Kyouryuu »

I agree with Lothar. The \"restricted licensing\" system works better than any magical age limit. There are people at 20 who are just as stupid as other people at 16. The restricted licensing system ensures that you have to spend many hours supervised on the road before you step up for a real license. For some, that's annoying. To me, it reinforces a fundamental fact: Driving is not a right; it's a privilege.

It also forces (most) parents to do their jobs and take some responsibility for their child's actions, which is something sorely lacking in this country.
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Post by Duper »

I wish Merlin would post here. He was explaining to me how getting a license in Canada is something like a 5 year process with a probationary period.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Being the father of two children, the oldest 13 who just started High School, and seeing all the teen drivers racing about when I pick her up after school every day, I'm going to vote with my instincts if given the chance on this one and I'll say Hell yes! Raise it to 18!!! Do it now!!!!

I believe there is a study that shows the most deadly time to drive is between 2:30 and 4:30 when all the kids flood the streets.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Duper: Canada is a big place and like the U.S. driving licences are a provincial (=state) responsibility. My post tells you what you have to do in British Columbia. Merlin I believe lives in Ontario where you can get one in 20 months from your 16th birthday but it can take you much longer.
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Post by Ferno »

In alberta, you get a learner's at 14 and a driver's at 16. BC is more graduated. you get your learners' at 14(?) with an L placard that you have to stick on the back of your car, then an N placard which is a six-month probationary period (I think), and then the regular license.

I'm not 100% sure on the BC rules because I got my drivers in alberta.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Maybe a reasonable and effective solution would be to have a penalty for any moving violation cause any driver under age 18 to lose his license and be ineligible to drive again until he was 18 or one year passed whichever is longer.
I know that would have cooled me off.

Note this comes from a guy who, at age 16, on a bet, drove backwards down a 4 lane highway as fast as the car would go, passing other cars for miles until a cop going the other way saw me and I just got lucky he couldn't find me when I ran...
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Post by Canuck »

flip wrote:Canuck I'm envious now. :P I had a F85 cutlass with a 330 so the car your driving I always had high hopes to get.
That would be what year?

I also had an Cutlass S.
350, two barrel, 2:11 limited slip, 10.25:1, compression, manual brakes, straightened reinforced frame, Moog coils. Thing was clocked at 170 mph and climbing as the radar gun couldn't go any higher. Will NOT run on today's crappy octane fuels. For a while I was mixing Nav-gas and it ran like a champ but was rough on the carb seals and valve seals. Again, my brother-in-law bought it. He also has a '64 inherited from his Grandpa.
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Post by Duper »

Ford Prefect wrote:Duper: Canada is a big place and like the U.S. driving licences are a provincial (=state) responsibility. My post tells you what you have to do in British Columbia. Merlin I believe lives in Ontario where you can get one in 20 months from your 16th birthday but it can take you much longer.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... index.html
Ford, thanks!

I wasn't aware of that; although it makes total sense. and yes he is.
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Post by flip »

It was a 1967. Looked like the 442 of that year without the muscle :(
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Post by Canuck »

Flip I have a spare '69 455 with a turbo 400 stage 4 Transgo Shift kit we can shoe-horn into that :P

Be prepared for a crack in the dash above the ashtray as the frame will twist so hard it tears there :)
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Post by flip »

Bummer man =/ Where were you 10 years ago when I sold her? I would have jumped on that in a minute. No substitute for cubic inches >:)
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Post by Kiran »

I agree with Lothar that there should be a more strict restricted driving and that there should be a requirement of driving class before the teens get their license. Make it a requirement to have a certain percentage passing grade to get the license too.
I benefited from a driving class I took in high school and I haven't been in a single wreck since I got my first car (and I still have my car).

What gets to me is that they're wanting to raise the driving age to 18 but lower the drinking age to 18 as well. That's a really bad combination! Young adults have got to learn how to drive first and then learn what their drinking limits are! These people need to learn how much buzz is too much buzz when you're on the road (yes, it's illegal to drive even with a minor \"buzz\" but even people who knows how to stay alert with a minor buzz can drive well). Honestly, the problem of teen deaths and injury and high costs from reckless driving isn't going to be answered with \"raise the driving age\". I firmly believe that one way to help solve the problem is a driving course in high school, longer and more strict restricted license/learner permit and effective parental support and involvement.

I've had too many of my childhood friends killed from their reckless driving before we graduated high school. This really hits home for me and that experience is what kept me from being a reckless driver. I wasn't going to be \"another bright young person who left behind family, friends, and a great future\" who decided to be reckless.
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