DescentBB

With the re-election on Netanyahu I have to wonder how much the snub by Obama helped him out.

likely didn't hurt......it really puts Israel in a box, though, thanks to that last-minute promise of no Palestinian state. I wonder how well this coalition will wear. On the other hand,I look at elections like this and wonder what US politics would be like if WE had multiple parties and had to form coalitions within and between them to govern. Not going to happen anytime soon, given how hard it is to have viable parties here past the big Two.

callmeslick wrote:likely didn't hurt......it really puts Israel in a box, though, thanks to that last-minute promise of no Palestinian state.

Lol, Israel has been a nation in a box since its inception.

Obama wants to define the size and shape of the box to his liking just like everyone else who has an opinion on the subject does.

They are in a violent region and vulnerable if left without allies so they have to sometimes accept outsiders manipulations.
So if someone on the inside causes the shape of the box to shift it is not a new paradigm for the citizens to worry about. I doubt they see his use of hard line rhetoric as anything life changing, or even as anything unusual.

callmeslick wrote:I wonder how well this coalition will wear. On the other hand,I look at elections like this and wonder what US politics would be like if WE had multiple parties and had to form coalitions within and between them to govern. Not going to happen anytime soon, given how hard it is to have viable parties here past the big Two.

I'd love to see it but the people who manage the status quo are not susceptible to manipulations from outside their fraternity so no one will be putting them in a box anytime soon.

I am gutted by the results of this election, and am (as it seems the whole nation is) in complete surprise. Though i guess we shouldn't be really. Netanyahu is the master manipulator of the Israeli people, ruthlessly intelligent and a superb strategic politician. It's such a shame he uses those talents to keep himself in a job rather than deal with the internal and external issues of the day.

Flabby Chick wrote:I am gutted by the results of this election, and am (as it seems the whole nation is) in complete surprise. Though i guess we shouldn't be really. Netanyahu is the master manipulator of the Israeli people, ruthlessly intelligent and a superb strategic politician. It's such a shame he uses those talents to keep himself in a job rather than deal with the internal and external issues of the day.

I wonder if it bothers you at all that Obama threatened to shoot down Israeli planes.

lol

According to http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/191966 it is a possibility.

It may be a false story- but it was supported by Zibigniew Brzezinsky. One of the old hands supporting Obama's presidency.

You seriously believe that kind of crap TB? Look dude, you don't have to like the guy or his policies, I get it, but do you truly, honestly believe that he would have authorized the shooting down of Israeli airplanes at this point in time? Seriously? Are you entirely insane?

Z.. wrote:Seriously? Are you entirely insane?

I think I can assume that you're asking a rhetorical question here, Z.

Z.. wrote:You seriously believe that kind of crap TB? Look dude, you don't have to like the guy or his policies, I get it, but do you truly, honestly believe that he would have authorized the shooting down of Israeli airplanes at this point in time? Seriously? Are you entirely insane?

Obama hates Israel period. He views it as a white European colonial occupation of aboriginal lands by an illegitimate government. Why? Because that was what he was taught from birth by his parents, his mentors and his teachers.

Would he go as far as shooting down Israeli planes? I honestly don't know. He's the only president so far that has made me question our remaining support for what used to be considered our allies around the world.

Our allies no longer look upon us as trustworthy- and our enemies look upon us as weak. A virtual guarantee of more violence and war.

ThunderBunny wrote:Our allies no longer look upon us as trustworthy- and our enemies look upon us as weak. A virtual guarantee of more violence and war.

for those reasons alone, voting the Republican idiot fringe out of Congress is a good idea. Because, those problems sure aren't Obama's fault.

callmeslick wrote:

ThunderBunny wrote:Our allies no longer look upon us as trustworthy- and our enemies look upon us as weak. A virtual guarantee of more violence and war.

for those reasons alone, voting the Republican idiot fringe out of Congress is a good idea. Because, those problems sure aren't Obama's fault.

If Obama can't lead I suggest he resigns. Foreign policy has been his alone to claim and now because it is in shambles you want to blame congress. How typical.

actually, as I've patiently pointed out, his foreign policy is doing pretty well, DESPITE every attempt by the GOP to subvert it. The only thing in shambles are the parts the Repubs feel compelled to meddle in.

even some Republicans with common sense get it:"Phil Zelikow, who was a senior adviser to former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, said, “It is never a good idea for elected leaders to give foreigners, and especially foreign enemies, a formal invitation to join our domestic arguments"

Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/opinion ... z3UqCzxQ2y

Some of the blame in foreign policy failure can be laid at Obama’s feet.

Red lines and drone strikes are an example.

But there is enough blame to go around, I wouldn’t be so fast to point at one party, or dismiss one party either.

my 'blame' above is for folks going out of their job description to meddle. And, yes, that falls on one party. Has Obama been perfect at this stuff? Of course no, no one could be, and certainly no one can forsee every turn of internatonal affairs. Still, his overall approach and judgement have been far sounder than any President in my lifetime. Anything done to reverse the creeping nonsense of neoconservatism and 'American Exceptionalism' of the past 30 years is both a breath of fresh air and intelligent foward thinking.

callmeslick wrote:Still, his overall approach and judgment have been far sounder than any President in my lifetime.

I'm going to second this because I was thinking about it just the other day. The shift in policy is subtle, but meaningful in the right places. It partly reminds me of how Ron Paul laid out his foreign policy (though Paul's views are a little extreme). One of Paul's ideas is the importance of having open communication with one's enemies because silence solves nothing. He also believes it is important to trade with everyone. So today, the United States finally has dialogue with Iran and our policy is opening up to Cuba. It's pretty amazing, actually. This can only have good consequences. As Steven Pinker noted, modern warfare is no longer cost-effective and is being avoided whenever possible. When countries have strong economic ties they become more valuable to each other and less likely to fight. Of course, that doesn't mean everyone will be buddies, but at the very least it improves the world just a little bit more. Oh, and our allies? Some of them are only friends to our dollar, but I guess that's how it has always been in international relations.

Flabby Chick wrote:I am gutted by the results of this election, and am (as it seems the whole nation is) in complete surprise. Though i guess we shouldn't be really. Netanyahu is the master manipulator of the Israeli people, ruthlessly intelligent and a superb strategic politician. It's such a shame he uses those talents to keep himself in a job rather than deal with the internal and external issues of the day.

He sounds just like some of our slimy politicians. He went hard right and then promised that side of his electorate the moon, like for instance, absolutely no Palestinian State if he gets elected, ever. But as he just spoke to NBC's reporter Andrea Mitchell here, he suddenly changed his tune. Probably to placate Washington. Every Israeli has been "pwned" by a man with delusions of grandeur, a lust for power and absolutely no principles. I'm glad Obama snubbed him.

note he changed his tune within an hour of the Obama administration promising to 'revisit' our support of Israel given the promise of no Palestinian state.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... ar-BBitZ1J

I couldn't be prouder of my President. This sort of frank rebuke to those that wish to play with our money is LONG overdue.

So the white house does have the right to revisit deals made by previous administrations…(statment of the obvious)

So what, now we are going to “meddle” in Israel’s internal affairs using extortion.

Spidey wrote:So the white house does have the right to revisit deals made by previous administrations…(statment of the obvious)

So what, now we are going to “meddle” in Israel’s internal affairs using extortion.

no, we are merely(maybe) going to act in OUR self-interest, not some other nation's.

So were you "never prouder" of Obama when he back peddled on his red line in Syria comment or how he admittedly lied when he said, "If you want your doctor you can keep your doctor"?

keep tossing out those tangental smokescreens, Woody. Makes your argument look REALLY weak. One didn't even have to do with foreign policy. Frankly, the new, tougher stance with Israel is both what Israel needs to deal with to rejoin reality, and an example of why vision and I feel the way we do about Obama and foreign affairs. It is a breath of fresh air seeing a true leader that is willing to alter a deadly course for the US.

callmeslick wrote:keep tossing out those tangental smokescreens, Woody. Makes your argument look REALLY weak. One didn't even have to do with foreign policy. Frankly, the new, tougher stance with Israel is both what Israel needs to deal with to rejoin reality, and an example of why vision and I feel the way we do about Obama and foreign affairs. It is a breath of fresh air seeing a true leader that is willing to alter a deadly course for the US.

I love watching you squirm slick. Tangential is the preoperative word now...heh

callmeslick wrote:

Spidey wrote:So the white house does have the right to revisit deals made by previous administrations…(statment of the obvious)

So what, now we are going to “meddle” in Israel’s internal affairs using extortion.

no, we are merely(maybe) going to act in OUR self-interest, not some other nation's.

So only your preferred President has acted in the interest of the US? All the others before him were under Netanyahu's evil spell?

only the current elected President, in the past 40 years, has started to re-align how we conduct our foreign policy. That is correct, Will, yes. The previous methods, indeed many times well-intended, served the US quite badly at times, and isolated us in world opinion far too often. Neoconservatism is, rightfully, a disgraced idea which should be fled from completely. Obama has started that process, and deserves credit for doing so.

callmeslick wrote:only the current elected President, in the past 40 years, has started to re-align how we conduct our foreign policy. That is correct, Will, yes. The previous methods, indeed many times well-intended, served the US quite badly at times, and isolated us in world opinion far too often. Neoconservatism is, rightfully, a disgraced idea which should be fled from completely. Obama has started that process, and deserves credit for doing so.

Obama has had the most disastrously bad foreign policy I have ever seen - dwarfing even his horrible domestic agenda by several orders of magnitude.

His legacy will be failed states in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. Not to mention ham handedly resetting Russian relations to worse than the bad old days of the cold war.

Yes, we have Obama to thank for that.

ThunderBunny wrote: Obama has had the most disastrously bad foreign policy I have ever seen - dwarfing even his horrible domestic agenda by several orders of magnitude.

His legacy will be failed states in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. Not to mention ham handedly resetting Russian relations to worse than the bad old days of the cold war.

Yes, we have Obama to thank for that.

So, you have some issues. No news. I'll wait for history to judge, but am pretty confident I'm right.

ThunderBunny wrote:Obama has had the most disastrously bad foreign policy I have ever seen - dwarfing even his horrible domestic agenda by several orders of magnitude.

I can't believe I'm replying to your idiocy, but here I go. First, I think it's cute how you keep saying Obama is the worst president you've ever seen. He's likely the only president you've ever seen. All your posts read like an angsty teenager who just discovered politics on the Internet. Everything you post is is exaggerated to truly ridiculous amounts.

ThunderBunny wrote:His legacy will be failed states in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. Not to mention ham handedly resetting Russian relations to worse than the bad old days of the cold war.

The current events in the Middle East are the product of decades of foreign policy decision, not just by the United States, but by the UK, Russia, and other world powers of the 20th Century. President Obama's policy is only slightly different than his predecessors and most of it is on the side of rhetoric. It appears most people on this forum can't tell the difference between rhetoric, policy, and actual deeds. The actions of United States are dictated by economics. The same people are exchanging the same money as before the Obama administration.

callmeslick wrote:

ThunderBunny wrote: Obama has had the most disastrously bad foreign policy I have ever seen - dwarfing even his horrible domestic agenda by several orders of magnitude.

His legacy will be failed states in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. Not to mention ham handedly resetting Russian relations to worse than the bad old days of the cold war.

Yes, we have Obama to thank for that.

So, you have some issues. No news. I'll wait for history to judge, but am pretty confident I'm right.

Your confidence in no way makes most Americans feel confident. As TB points out tho, I wonder what shape America will be when the history is written.

we're all allowed to wonder, and to have opinions. I'll stand by mine, and I'm clearly not alone.

And TB's opinion is not alone either.

a well written analysis of things.....Flabby, if you chance to read this, please comment from your perspective
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/20 ... gly-truth/