Iraq POW photos

For discussion of life's issues: current events, social trends and personal opinions.

Moderators: Jeff250, Tunnelcat

User avatar
Lothar
DBB Ghost Admin
DBB Ghost Admin
Posts: 12133
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: I'm so glad to be home
Contact:

Post by Lothar »

Kyouryuu wrote:I don't think there would have been controversy until someone started flapping their wings about it.
Are you serious? If people didn't react, there wouldn't be controversy? Oh wow... You have opened my eyes to a whole new world of possibility.

So if people never started flapping their wings about the Iraq war, there wouldn't be a controversy. And if people didn't start flapping their wings about abortion, there wouldn't be a controversy there either. Oh, and that whole Israel / Palestine thing... if only people would just not talk about it, there wouldn't be controversy.

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up? :P
User avatar
bash
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Texas

Post by bash »

Referring back to the NYT's piece Beefis linked to, indeed there seems to be credibile evidence coming to light now in initial investigations that the abuse was designed to be a sort of bad cop/good cop strategy orchestrated by military intelligence to get prisoners more willing to talk to interrogators once they were transferred away from the cruelty of the jailers, presumably to avoid being sent back.
So far, six enlisted personnel from a reserve military police unit have been charged in the military abuse cases. The Taguba report found that they were never properly trained or supervised and that they had done the bidding of secret interrogators from the intelligence community. It found that in effect, the military police were told to soften up the prisoners so they would talk more freely in interrogations conducted by intelligence officials.

The Taguba report states that "military intelligence interrogators and other U.S. Government Agency interrogators actively requested that M.P. guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses." The report noted that one civilian interrogator, a contractor from a company called CACI International and attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, "clearly knew his instructions" to the military police equated to physical abuse.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/inter ... US.html?hp
User avatar
Bold Deceiver
DBB Captain
DBB Captain
Posts: 541
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Somewhere in SoCal

Post by Bold Deceiver »

Birdseye wrote:Actually, I was thinking of censorship under the definition of purposely repressed information, government or not. If a breast appears in a movie on TV and is blocked out, people would say that it's being censored. As far as I know there is no government regulation forcing this, but there is a 'gentlemans agreement' between the networks on what is or what is not acceptable, and society's influence of what is acceptable. If I am mistaken, please feel free to correct me, but here is a dictionary definition:

"Censorship can be explicit, as in laws passed to prevent information being published or propagated (as in Australia or China where certain Internet pages are not permitted entry), or it can take the form of intimidation by government or even by popular censure, where people are afraid to express or support certain opinions for fear of losing their lives, or their jobs, position in society, or in academia, their academic credibility"
I stand corrected. Thanks.

BD
User avatar
Nightmare USA
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 2:01 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by Nightmare USA »

The activity is a disgrace to the values that the majority uphold. We are for the most part an open society, except when you ask a politician a question, and this is the price we pay for that freedom. Hopefully this openess will spread to the middle east, it will help them get used to democracy.
User avatar
Kyouryuu
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 5775
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Isla Nublar
Contact:

Post by Kyouryuu »

Oh come now, don't tell me you didn't realize Koppel's trap. Of course he knew he'd get the ire of armchair generals up by showing the names, and they would add fuel to the fire that burned "Watch Nightline, ABC tonight!"

My point about controversy goes back to the other thread.
Kyouryuu wrote:I have my suspicions the pseudo-patriotic Koppel wouldn't have even done it if there were no controversy to boost ratings.
And I still do have those suspicions. If y'all didn't make a big stink about it, Koppel probably wouldn't have done the program. But he'd knew someone would start complaining, and all that means is more money in the bank for the television sponsors. That's how the media is. The more you scratch the mosquito bite, the more it itches. :P
bash wrote:unabashedly proclaim their ignorance
Please, the little personal jabs are really childish, bash. :roll:
User avatar
kurupt
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Clinton, Ohio

Post by kurupt »

ehhh, they had it coming
User avatar
Kyouryuu
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 5775
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Isla Nublar
Contact:

Post by Kyouryuu »

They who had what now? :?
User avatar
Tyranny
DBB Defender
DBB Defender
Posts: 3399
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Post by Tyranny »

Like you stated Sol, the media taps into certain facets of the human psyche on purpose. It isn't just as simple as "oh, just ignore it" when you're talking about the people as a collective unit though.

Individually yes, we can say "well, wtf gives a damn about his broadcast?". On a larger whole though that isn't so easily done. You do something to incite anger and you'll see it the most in a collective, not so much in individuals even though individuals usually lead to starting the larger groups :P

It's a complicated thing overall. Our country has been doing this type of thing to it's people for a long time. It's easy to target a natural human emotion and exploit it. The media, tv companies and marketers have become experts at this.

Look at December of 1999 for example. Remember all the fear mongering going on by the media about Y2K? All the doomsday predictions and wild end of the world prophecies being proclaimed. I'm sure millions if not billions of dollars were made in the last half of that year. People were rushing out buying TONS of canned goods, water, gas masks, power generators etc...etc..:roll:. I'm sure there are a few people on this board whose families were anticipating the worste. Like any of these items would have saved you from the end of the world anyways. Sure, if the Y2K bug happend it might have done something, but come on, lets be serious and recognize what really took place that year.

The news shows tons of horrible things happening supposedly in your own neighborhood all the time and people go out and buy firearms, home security systems, guard dogs :P, just to feel safe when in fact if you're not living in a dangerous neighborhood to begin with, the chances of you being in grave danger is "almost" nil.

Anyways, this is all rant on my part. What I don't understand Sol, is why you've already agreed that this was a politically motivated move on the media and yet somehow this arguement continues on both sides. It's actually quite funny to read.

I think because you decided to echo the sentiments of the individuals side and say "If you don't pay attention to it, it won't matter". This works for some things, to have this philosophy, but regarding the media this is something I feel can't be applied. Atleast for the sake of the "Collective", because lets face it, you poke at something sensetive and it's going to spark controversy whether YOU like it or not.

The media or anyone for that matter should not be able to play off of this to further their own pseudo-political gains. To have a country resolved in finishing the job in Iraq and have that countries own media trying to destroy that resolve is the real evil IMO.

You would risk more lives being lost in the future having that country become a much larger cesspool then it already is then tolerate a few lives being lost today so that Iraq might potentially become a better place for all parties involved?

You would deminish the efforts and sacrifices made by our country's fighting forces not only in Iraq but in Afghanistan just for the sake of furthering your own agenda of continued intolerance and fear mongering?

You would exploit the dead and the families of the dead just so that you and those you work for can turn a huge profit without real regards or care for those you exploit?

This is the real problem and it shouldn't be ignored. It should make people angry and it should make them fuss about it. Not for the sake of stopping the war on terrorism, but for the sake that the media is allowed to play all of us for fools and make us react to images that scare us or their tear jerking propaganda so as to undermine that which men and woman have made the ultimate sacrifices for already.

They struggle to keep us in control and keep us thinking what they want us to think and they keep pumping us with these horrible images to make us see what most of us should already know are the results of war and expect us to be shocked into pushing for the war to end. It isn't just about us anymore though. We've pushed too deep into this conflict that we can't just pull up limp now.

Thats why Koppel doing this now was in poor taste (As Usual) and the whole situation in the middle east (the bigger picture) was not given the proper respect and treatment it deserved. Thats the shame of it all.

Quasi-ontopic: If we didn't have something to complain about Sol, you wouldn't have something to counter-complain about. Don't you just love the irony of it all? :P
User avatar
Kyouryuu
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 5775
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Isla Nublar
Contact:

Post by Kyouryuu »

What a long and thoughtful response.

I really don't have a whole lot to say in response. I think you just about covered it, Tyranny.
User avatar
bash
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Texas

Post by bash »

Uh Oh, grab your ankles and lube yourselves for more OH MY GOD THE SKY IS FALLING shocking revelations from Al Ghraib Prison...

* * *

Baghdad - US CentCom braced for an international human rights backlash today, as it released another raft of photos detailing widespread inmate abuse and humiliation at the hands of US guards at the notorious Al Ghraib prison.

In the newly released photos, masked Iraqi prisoners are shown forming human pyramids, stuffing Volkswagens, eating live goldfish and pounding 'beer bongs,' all under the supervision of laughing US guards.

"The occupiers forced me go on a 'snipe hunt'," said a tearful Khalid al-Husseini, a former shredder operator under Saddam who was recently released from Al Ghraib after a three week incarceration. "Yet, I was not told for over three hours that there were no snipes to be found, as they were but a cruel invention of the occupiers!"

Another former prisoner, Hassan Atwah, said American prisoner abuses were widespread.

"Guards used interrogation methods including 'Bong 99', 'Quarters' and the fearsome 'Jello shots,'" said the ex-Fedayeen commander. "later we we blindfolded and forced to feel Tupperware bowls filled with eyeballs and worms."

Humilation was a common technique of guards, according to Abdul Abdullah. "Occupiers are make me to wear a beanie-hat and go on burqqa raid of woman prison," he said, visibly shaken.

Abdullah, who spend over eight years in a Saddam torture cell, said his treatment under American captors was "much worse."

"I am made to be like lowly woman, begging for woman clothing from lowly woman," he explained. "For Iraq man, to be made to be as a woman is beneath even the animal, the insect. I would rather be shot in the head than be treated like stupid Iraq woman."

CentCom investigators say the abuse probe will expand to cover rumors of short-sheeting, shoe polish on prison toilet seats, and routine sleep tortures involving shaving cream and warm glasses of water.

The recent revelations brought a harsh outcry from the international press. Under a giant banner reading "SHAME," the Mirror newspaper of London ran a late edition featuring full-page photos of hooded Iraqi prisoners lighting flatulence and helplessly flailing at pinatas. The broadsheet Independent ran a related story implicating British troops in widespread prisoner-pantsing, charges that were denied by the Defence Ministry.

Promised disciplinary action by US Military officials also did little to placate human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch, which immediately called for international sanctions against the US, including "double secret probation."

The widening scandal has also attracted the attention of the United Nations. Secretary General Kofi Annan said he would refer the matter to the UN Human Rights Commission.

"Hopefully, we can schedule full hearings after the seating of its new Sudanese member," said Annan.

US Senator Joseph Biden of the Senate Armed Service Committee also called for Congressional oversight, saying that "this scandal reaches all the way to the top."

"It may be mere coincidence," said Biden, "but these tortures are eerily similar to the Skull and Bones initiation."

* * *

:D http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/20 ... hocke.html
User avatar
Tyranny
DBB Defender
DBB Defender
Posts: 3399
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Post by Tyranny »

haha..
User avatar
Lothar
DBB Ghost Admin
DBB Ghost Admin
Posts: 12133
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: I'm so glad to be home
Contact:

Post by Lothar »

LOL
User avatar
Lothar
DBB Ghost Admin
DBB Ghost Admin
Posts: 12133
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: I'm so glad to be home
Contact:

Post by Lothar »

... and now, for something more serious, from http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/fea ... =110005044
Abuse and the Army
The military, not CBS, discovered the outrages at Abu Ghraib.

Thursday, May 6, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

As President Bush and everyone else in America has said, any abuse of Iraqi prisoners is "abhorrent" and should be punished. Yet it seems to us that an overlooked story here, and ultimately the most telling, is the degree to which the U.S. military is investigating itself and holding people accountable.

This isn't a popular thought just now, with the media and politicians in one of their bonfire phases. Every accusation against U.S. troops is now getting front-page treatment. Like reporters at a free buffet, Members of Congress are swarming to the TV cameras to declare their outrage and demand someone's head, usually Donald Rumsfeld's. "System of abuse" and "cover-up" are being tossed about without any evidence of either. The goal seems to be less to punish the offenders than to grab one more reason to discredit the Iraq war.

For a sense of proportion, let's rehearse the timeline here. While some accusations of abuse go back to 2002 in Afghanistan, the incidents at Abu Ghraib that triggered this week's news occurred last autumn. They came to light through the chain of command in Iraq on January 13. An Army criminal probe began a day later. Two days after that, the U.S. Central Command disclosed in a press release that "an investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility." By March 20, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt was able to announce in Baghdad that criminal charges had been brought against six soldiers in the probe.

By the end of January, meanwhile, Major General Antonio Taguba was appointed to conduct his separate "administrative" probe of procedures at Abu Ghraib. It is his report, complete with its incriminating photos, that is the basis for the past week's news reports. The press didn't break this story based on months of sleuthing but was served up the results of the Army's own investigation.

By February, the Secretary of the Army had ordered the service's inspector general to assess the doctrine and training for detention operations within all of CentCom. A month after that, another probe began into Army Reserve training, especially military police and intelligence. Those reports will presumably also be leaked and reported on, or at least they will be if they reach negative conclusions.

This is a cover-up? Unlike the Catholic bishops, some corporate boards and the editors of the New York Times or USA Today, the military brass did not dismiss early allegations of bad behavior. Instead, it established reviews and procedures that have uncovered the very details that are now used by critics to indict the Pentagon "system." It has done so, moreover, amid a war against a deadly insurgency in which interrogation to gain good intelligence is critical to victory--and to saving American lives.

None of this is to dismiss or rationalize the abuse reports. Accountability has to run beyond the soldiers immediately responsible and up the Army and intelligence chains of command. The Abu Ghraib procedures were clearly inadequate to a situation in which interrogators were given so much control over the fates of individual prisoners. Especially in a war on terror that will be long and require effective interrogation, this is unacceptable.

Reprimands have already been issued and careers ended, but courts martial can't be ruled out. President Bush's explanation to Arab media yesterday may help our public image, especially given that their own governments rarely admit mistakes. But the best way to impress Iraqis about U.S. purposes is to show that Americans guilty of abuse are being punished, and with more than letters of reprimand.

To start impugning the entire Army and Pentagon, however, is both wrong and dangerous. The majority of American soldiers are professional, disciplined and are risking their lives to win a war. (Note to those who want to revive the draft: If this could happen in today's highly trained volunteer force, imagine the risks in Senator Chuck Hagel's Army of conscripts.)

Another bizarre notion is that Abu Ghraib happened because the Pentagon decided to hold "enemy combatants" under other than "prisoner of war" status. Those detainees are still given Geneva Convention treatment, as well as visits by the Red Cross. The Pentagon has avoided formal Geneva Convention status because it doesn't want al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners to be able to hide behind "name, rank and serial number." As terrorists who attacked civilians and didn't wear a uniform, they also don't deserve the privileges of real soldiers. In any case, the soldiers who posed in those Abu Ghraib photos were clearly too thick to know any of this.

The military has its faults and bad actors, but over the decades it has shown itself to be one of America's most accountable institutions. The Abu Ghraib episode is another test of its fortitude. But the political class would do well to heed Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman, who said yesterday that "this immoral behavior in no way eliminates the justice of our cause in Iraq."
User avatar
bash
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Texas

Post by bash »

Yea, it's been galling seeing CBS posture like it *broke the story*. Lazy azz journalists. Speaking of, came across a great quote today (can't remember where) that in America you have to be licensed to cut hair but not to be a reporter. Blogs and independent media (not to be confused with Indymedia, which is about as crap as it gets) are definitely the *new journalism*.
User avatar
kurupt
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Clinton, Ohio

Post by kurupt »

what i dont get is, why do people think war should be humane? sure, we dont want our boys getting tortured, but it happens in war. its not a 4h club meeting.
User avatar
bash
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Texas

Post by bash »

America is dared to be perfect by our detractors. Anything short of perfection and they pounce. It's a double standard, ya, but I'd rather people raise the bar for us than lower it.
User avatar
roid
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 9996
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2001 3:01 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Post by roid »

coz we consider refraining from killing one another in any way possible to be "enlightened".

so we try to make wars... not wars :P
economic wars etc.

(edit: oh hey bash, you kinda snuck in there)
User avatar
Zuruck
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2026
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by Zuruck »

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34 ... med_forces


Looks like the kitten has got some claws.
User avatar
Zuruck
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2026
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by Zuruck »

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/

Apparently, the so called video tape has some pretty raunchy stuff. Soldiers beating someone almost to death, raping a female prisoner, ouch, well if it makes it out...what kind of difference does anyone think it'll make? I don't think it'll make any, we are hated in that part of the world, actually we are hated by the rest of the world, it will just continue to be that ay.
User avatar
bash
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Texas

Post by bash »

I've read the allegations of rape (at least the male raped) were perpetrated by Iraqi guards at the prison. It will be interesting to see how that's portrayed. Who will get blamed for that? Did the Iraqis undertake that on their own or will they claim to be *following orders*.

In other news, all the publicity may actually ensure that those guilty will be unable to be convicted. In military legal proceedings it's called Command Influence.
Command influence is when anyone in the panel members' chain of command says something that might be interpreted by the panel as an attempt to sway them toward rendering a biased verdict. It amounts to jury tampering, except that command influence can be entirely accidental.
I have to believe that every time someone hollars for (and gets) an apology from somebody even remotely connected to the scandal, the military lawyers for the defendants have to be high-fiving each other. Even Rumsfield touched on it yesterday when he explained to the panel that by releasing even small details prematurely or making definitive statements about guilt or innocence, the likelihood for convictions is reduced. Everyone's pandering for more sordid details but their release could very well sink any hope of justice being served if the defense attorneys can demonstrate that all these mea culpas could have influenced the outcome.

And finally, who cares if we're hated? We were hated for insufficient cause far before this occurred. If everyone involved, including Rumsfield, were lined up against the wall and shot tomorrow, nothing will change. Get used to it, Z, when you're the big dog envy and resentment comes with the territory.
User avatar
Zuruck
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2026
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by Zuruck »

bash, did you even go to the smirking chimp? apparently, the rape is in ADDITION to the iraqi guards doing to someone, or thing.

I guess I don't care. But know you have to wonder if all the bitching by the Arab world about all the abuse by American soldiers is not a lie. Now do you believe what the military says about civilian deaths, I don't know, but it leads to interesting questions, and usually horrible results.
User avatar
bash
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Texas

Post by bash »

Sorry, Z, I didn't. I generally get my news from sites without references to primates in their title. It's crazy, I know, but I'm a rebel. ;) Anyway, I was aware it was in addition to an allegation regarding an Iraqi girl being raped (see my parenthetical in the other post trying to make the disctinction, perhaps confusingly). In other news, the general sentiment on the Iraqi blogs I read is optimistic and most have put the scandal behind them and are appreciative with how it's been handled by the US. I see that as positive to the overall effort to get Iraq's fledgling Democracy buttoned up in time for June 30. I know they sense they have bigger issues to surmount in the short time left before regaining sovereignty.

Here's a good Q&A with an Iraqi doctor who spent a good deal of time working at the prison:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
Birdseye
DBB DemiGod
DBB DemiGod
Posts: 3655
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by Birdseye »

I don't know if the blogs are necessarily a very good indicator of overall sentiment. Those people are likely more educated a wealthy, but how does the less educated common person feel about america?
User avatar
bash
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Texas

Post by bash »

Take it for what it's worth. The few people I've turned on to Iraqi blogs either take them as Gospel or accuse the authors of working for the CIA. *shrug* It often says more about the reader than the author regarding how these blogs are perceived. For me, however, I'd prefer reading from the intelligensia because they are more insightful, have a greater sense of historical perspective and are more plugged into the future power structure. Their opinions matter more than the average dirt farmer in the larger scheme of things.
Birdseye
DBB DemiGod
DBB DemiGod
Posts: 3655
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by Birdseye »

"The few people I've turned on to Iraqi blogs either take them as Gospel or accuse the authors of working for the CIA."

...of which i'm saying neither.

"Their opinions matter more than the average dirt farmer in the larger scheme of things. "

If the common person is pissed off enough, it will not matter if we've won the upper class. We need both.
Post Reply