DescentBB

So once again its Trumps fault? Fixated much.

No, I'm betting it was at the behest of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner and Trump just wanted the prestige for doing it. However, Trump didn't consider the consequences of doing what he did, like most of the BS decisions he made while in office.

Edit: Found this little article from when Kushner managed to get a big present for Israel, the U.S. recognition of Jerusalem as their capitol. This, by the way, was done near the end of 2020. That's about right for Hamas to get really pissed off and take 2 years to plan their next major attack. An "explosion of peace" in the Middle East they claimed. Uh huh. More like Kushner and Netanyahu lit a very long fuse on a very big bomb and it just went off in their faces. Thank you Trump and your little preppie son-in-law for maybe starting WWIII.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kushner-t ... in-region/

Just in case you think Trump kept his lying pie hole shut about his and Kushner's involvement, or even acknowledged some responsibility, nope. He sat there and bragged it would've never happened under his watch. Unless he's got control over Hamas, it would've certainly happened under his watch.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10 ... t-him.html

woodchip wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:49 amSo what do the protestors mean when they chant "Free Palestine" if they don't want to be a independent state.

Self-determination. Israel currently controls all key aspects of Palestinian life. You can have self-determination without having a UN recognized state.

Iran will no longer have access to that billions of dollars as of today.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/politics ... index.html

And Trump is now blathering absolute nonsense about this whole tragedy.

vision wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:02 pm

woodchip wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:49 amSo what do the protestors mean when they chant "Free Palestine" if they don't want to be a independent state.

Self-determination. Israel currently controls all key aspects of Palestinian life. You have have self-determination without having a UN recognized state.

Exactly, yet Palestine leadership turned down the offer of statehood around 6 times from what I heard. So chanting free Palestine sounds rather shallow and ignorant...at least to me.

Tunnelcat wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:21 pm Iran will no longer have access to that billions of dollars as of today.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/politics ... index.html

And Trump is now blathering absolute nonsense about this whole tragedy.

I've said before, Trump needs to learn to keep his mouth shut.

woodchip wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:41 am...yet Palestine leadership turned down the offer of statehood...

I'll say it again since you missed it the first time. You can have self-determination without statehood. There are TONS of things Israel could to to improve the situation, things ONLY Israel can do, but they choose not to. There is a massive asymmetry between Israel and Palestine and that asymmetry is the reason I put most of the blame on Israel for all the problems over there. They have to power to change everything, they just don't want to.

It's easy to place responsibility on the party in power, and that is a logical assumption, but the real issue is a mutual hatred that goes back centuries that is at the root of the problem.

"Mutual hatred that goes back centuries" matters a lot less than what happened last week or last month or last year.

Spidey wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:15 pm...the real issue is a mutual hatred that goes back centuries...

No. That's one lazy ass response. The conflict by definition goes back to at most to 1917 when people started to seriously consider a Jewish state. But if I were to point to a single event that set the stage for today it would be The Nakba. The creation of Israel was a colossal mistake. A glass breaks in an instant but takes infinitely longer to clean up. Israel and Israel aligned interests are doing a terrible job cleaning up this mess, probably because it's more profitable to keep it this way. I have a really hard time blaming Palestinians who have no structural power to make meaningful change.

vision wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:43 pm

woodchip wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:41 am...yet Palestine leadership turned down the offer of statehood...

I'll say it again since you missed it the first time. You can have self-determination without statehood. There are TONS of things Israel could to to improve the situation, things ONLY Israel can do, but they choose not to. There is a massive asymmetry between Israel and Palestine and that asymmetry is the reason I put most of the blame on Israel for all the problems over there. They have to power to change everything, they just don't want to.

I disagree. Hamas had the power to improve their citizens lot and chose to prepare and execute slaughter against Israel. Hamas and earlier the PLO own the fate of what is now going to happen to the Gaza strip. To think otherwise is to believe the Nazi's started WW2 because they were oppressed and the Jews were the top culprits.

Vander wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:10 pm "Mutual hatred that goes back centuries" matters a lot less than what happened last week or last month or last year.

Hatred that goes back centuries becomes hatred in the present.

Hamas has zero interest in improving the lives of the citizens of Gaza, in fact they have a vested interest in making the lives of citizens in Gaza worse. Happy citizens of Gaza won't turn to or support Hamas. The whole thing is unfolding exactly the way that Hamas wants: lots of Israeli civilians getting killed, even more Palestinian civilians getting killed in retaliation.

woodchip wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:44 am I've said before, Trump needs to learn to keep his mouth shut.

He can't help himself. He thinks he's the smartest and most knowledgeable person alive and he wants everyone to know it. That's what a big ego does to a person who's not smart enough to keep his stupid trap shut.

woodchip wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:33 pmHamas had the power to improve their citizens...

Hamas is not Palestine. Hamas is part of a fractured governing body in part of the Palestinian territories. The other governing bodies in Palestine are under the influence or direct control of the IDF. So please, explain to me how Palestinians, who have no self-determination and no legal rights in Israel (the country that occupies and blockades their territories), can improve their well-being without giving up their land and national identity. They are literally being erased by Israel and have been since 1948. This is the basis for the entire conflict, literally fighting against western-backed Israeli imperialism.

Don't try to frame the conflict as two equal powers. The asymmetry is the problem.

Krom wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:31 pm Hamas has zero interest in improving the lives of the citizens of Gaza, in fact they have a vested interest in making the lives of citizens in Gaza worse. Happy citizens of Gaza won't turn to or support Hamas. The whole thing is unfolding exactly the way that Hamas wants: lots of Israeli civilians getting killed, even more Palestinian civilians getting killed in retaliation.

A surprisingly insightful statement Krom. Kudos

Now if only you would realize the Republicans/Conservatives are doing exactly the same ★■◆●ing thing about the debt/border/red states being poor/every other thing they blame on democrats/etc. They make you poor and stupid on purpose and don't want to fix the problems they decry because if the problems were fixed they wouldn't be able to blame them on democrats in order to get elected.

How much hate does one have to harbor to stab a 6 year old boy 26 times, to death, and seriously wound his mother? Because they're Muslims. The poor father is heartbroken. You approve woody? You've pretty much sanctioned Israel bombing the crap out of Gaza, because they all voted for Hamas in the past, without regard to women and children ending up as collateral damage and/or homeless.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/plainf ... ly-injured

Are you telling me that ole bar skag was right about the Jewish Space lasers starting the California wild fires? Sheeeeesh, I don't know what to believe anymore.

We gave them that laser technology. I'm sure it's being used to try and shoot down Hamas rockets. If it's ever used offensively to kill, it's our fault.

It is pretty difficult to use ground based lasers offensively.

I was thinking defensively. But yeah, hitting a high speed missile with a laser beam might be a little difficult. Other than that, I have no clue what they want to use it for.

Missles don't dodge and the best time to hit them is at the top of their arc so yeah a laser would work unless it is raining or low clouds that would disperse the bean

Tunnelcat wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:09 pm If fact, I'm willing to bet Mossad KNEW all about Hamas' plans. They are one of the best intelligence agencies in the world and to miss this one is really out of character. Hamas had to practice in large groups in the open all over Gaza and the West Bank. Mossad couldn't have missed it. They have access to our own damn satellites and intelligence and use them. So either they were incompetent, blind or knew what was going to happen and LET it happen. Netanyahu has been itching for an excuse to invade Gaza and wipe it clean. Well, now he's got it. He's an ultraconservative warmonger just evil enough himself to let this happen. His judicial reform desires caused civil unrest and probably contributed to this whole disaster. Why that corrupt felonious jackass was re-elected is beyond me. Another right winger throws a country into turmoil for personal gratification. We're next.

Told you so woody. In fact Hamas followed their plan almost to the last detail, a plan that the Israeli government knew about a full year beforehand. Now the next shoe to drop will be that Netanyahu allowed it to proceed instead of protecting his people from terrorists. So who's evil now?

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/433 ... tack-plan/

Tunnelcat wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:20 am

Tunnelcat wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:09 pm If fact, I'm willing to bet Mossad KNEW all about Hamas' plans. They are one of the best intelligence agencies in the world and to miss this one is really out of character. Hamas had to practice in large groups in the open all over Gaza and the West Bank. Mossad couldn't have missed it. They have access to our own damn satellites and intelligence and use them. So either they were incompetent, blind or knew what was going to happen and LET it happen. Netanyahu has been itching for an excuse to invade Gaza and wipe it clean. Well, now he's got it. He's an ultraconservative warmonger just evil enough himself to let this happen. His judicial reform desires caused civil unrest and probably contributed to this whole disaster. Why that corrupt felonious jackass was re-elected is beyond me. Another right winger throws a country into turmoil for personal gratification. We're next.

Told you so woody. In fact Hamas followed their plan almost to the last detail, a plan that the Israeli government knew about a full year beforehand. Now the next shoe to drop will be that Netanyahu allowed it to proceed instead of protecting his people from terrorists. So who's evil now?

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/433 ... tack-plan/

Told me what? NYT reported? Give me a source that's not a lib whack job paper.

Whatsamatter, you don't believe squat unless it comes from right wing whackjob news agencies? You'd better start broadening your horizons then, because people blab when they see wrongdoing and they tend to go to the NYT or WAPO since right wing outlets don't want to hear about it and bury it. More and more BS is going to come out about this particular nasty story as time marches on too.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... eports-say

https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-soldier- ... 42567.html

So TC, you now saying the 1400 dead are the fault of the Israeli govt? If so you should take a serious look at your moral compass. Maybe 9/11 was really caused by the US govt...as was Pearl Harbor. Christ weeps at such logic.

Yes. The government let it happen. Whether it was on purpose or ignorance of reality, time will eventually tell. I'm willing to bet Netanyahu let it happen on purpose to become a war leader since he was dealing with massive protests over his desire to rework Israel's judiciary. You know, like Trump wants to do?

Hanlon's razor applies here.

Stupidity, which I don't think applies in this case since the relevant agencies AND Netanyahu knew about the plans for the attack, even down to the fine details. It was either wilful negligence, which I find hard to believe, or for a purpose. Netanyahu was in trouble politically. He was having massive protests against his government, specifically to his desired changes to the judiciary, which would've benefited him and his Likud Party greatly power-wise. And if we stupidly elect Trump, this country will face the exact same bull★■◆●, all because the right seems to have a severe hate boner going on for anything to the left of their views, even if it's centrist on the political spectrum.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-02-13/

I prefer the formulation 'never attribute to malice what could just as easily be explained by incompetence'.

Tunnelcat wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:16 pm Stupidity, which I don't think applies in this case since the relevant agencies AND Netanyahu knew about the plans for the attack, even down to the fine details. It was either wilful negligence, which I find hard to believe, or for a purpose. Netanyahu was in trouble politically. He was having massive protests against his government, specifically to his desired changes to the judiciary, which would've benefited him and his Likud Party greatly power-wise. And if we stupidly elect Trump, this country will face the exact same bull★■◆●, all because the right seems to have a severe hate boner going on for anything to the left of their views, even if it's centrist on the political spectrum.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-02-13/

Weaponization is a purpose.

Tunnelcat wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:16 pm Stupidity, which I don't think applies in this case since the relevant agencies AND Netanyahu knew about the plans for the attack, even down to the fine details. It was either wilful negligence, which I find hard to believe, or for a purpose. Netanyahu was in trouble politically. He was having massive protests against his government, specifically to his desired changes to the judiciary, which would've benefited him and his Likud Party greatly power-wise. And if we stupidly elect Trump, this country will face the exact same bull★■◆●, all because the right seems to have a severe hate boner going on for anything to the left of their views, even if it's centrist on the political spectrum.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-02-13/

Lets suppose you're right. Should the Israeli's ignore this: Top Hamas Official Suggests Attack Bigger Than October 7 Is On The Horizon
https://www.dailywire.com/news/top-hama ... he-horizon

What should be done now....negotiate ? What would you do if you were Sec of State.

woodchip wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:35 am

Tunnelcat wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:16 pm Stupidity, which I don't think applies in this case since the relevant agencies AND Netanyahu knew about the plans for the attack, even down to the fine details. It was either wilful negligence, which I find hard to believe, or for a purpose. Netanyahu was in trouble politically. He was having massive protests against his government, specifically to his desired changes to the judiciary, which would've benefited him and his Likud Party greatly power-wise. And if we stupidly elect Trump, this country will face the exact same bull★■◆●, all because the right seems to have a severe hate boner going on for anything to the left of their views, even if it's centrist on the political spectrum.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-02-13/

Lets suppose you're right. Should the Israeli's ignore this: Top Hamas Official Suggests Attack Bigger Than October 7 Is On The Horizon
https://www.dailywire.com/news/top-hama ... he-horizon

What should be done now....negotiate ? What would you do if you were Sec of State.

Beef up security. Don't make the same mistakes as before. Prevent the attacks before they happen. Maybe try to assassinate Hamas leaders with minimal collateral damage.

But don't go around bombing random civilians. That's the reason why groups like Hamas hate Israel in the first place. It just creates more terrorists.

Reality Check: Groups like Hamas hate Israel because they are Jews. /Reality Check

Spidey wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:16 am Reality Check: Groups like Hamas hate Israel because they are Jews. /Reality Check

How do you think they get support and more members? From people who have suffered from Israeli actions. It's a cycle of violence. Do you think they would have as much support as they do if the Palestinians weren't suffering so much from Israeli policies?

Hypothetically, let's say that Israel was an island nation somewhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, which had no history of conflict with Palestine, and really no effect on their lives at all. Do you think there would be as much animus against them as there is now among the Palestinians, simply because they were Jewish?

For you first question...that would depend on where the hate originates, not so much what continues it.

To your second question...I think when you hate your enemy as much as they do, you would go to another planet to destroy them.

Spidey wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:00 pm For you first question...that would depend on where the hate originates, not so much what continues it.

To your second question...I think when you hate your enemy as much as they do, you would go to another planet to destroy them.

Some people certainly would, as racial and religious hatred is always present in some degree. But it certainly wouldn't be anywhere near as pervasive and the majority of Palestinian people wouldn't have it on their minds all the time.

Israel and Palestine have a sordid history. There are many direct reasons for them to hate each other, based on what has been done to their families and loved ones, and what is still being done today.

The country with the largest Muslim population in the world is actually Indonesia. Their populace generally doesn't approve of Israel, but they don't go out of their way to try to attack them, because it's not their primary concern.

Spidey wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:00 pm For you first question...that would depend on where the hate originates, not so much what continues it.

To your second question...I think when you hate your enemy as much as they do, you would go to another planet to destroy them.

Who started it really doesn't matter at this point. If they didn't live right next to each other while constantly trying to murder the other side (and sometimes succeeding), they probably wouldn't hate each other either, or even care about the others existence at all. They only hate each other that much because of their proximity.