DescentBB

psionik wrote:My post was not aimed at one person...

Neither was mine; I'm pointing at red flags throughout the entire MW project here, not you in particular.

But okay, let's keep it impersonal and professional:


Psionik, in the interest of the fans here who would like to see MW someday, can you please answer the following?


1. Is there a projected release date for either MW game (not the demo, not alpha, not beta... the full release)?


2. Is there a date users should expect online functionality in the demo?


3. Is there a guarantee for pre-purchasers (i.e. will they get a refund if nothing is released in, say, a year)?


4. Would you explain exactly how the following advertising indicates two separate games?

Original Miner Wars descriptions, before they were changed wrote:"Miner Wars is ... a combination of single player story game and MMO."

"Gameplay is led by an epic story and is a combination of a single/multi-player game, cooperative, or you against everyone."

"...Single-player Mode and MMO Mode..."

5. MinerWars.com claims the game will be "featured" by Intel at the Game Developer's Conference a few weeks from now. However, there is no information anywhere by GDC or Intel to corroborate this. Can you provide any outside confirmation?

KoolBear wrote:...we can't do anything without trashing these people over the coals!

KB, please go back and read my posts. I am speaking in the interest of our community of Descenters here!

The fact is that they are specifically targeting this Descent community (and others), selling and soliciting investment a piece of software which is not only unfinished... it's not in beta... it's not even an alpha, for that matter!

Yes, it appeals to you. It appeals to me, as a Descent fan! The videos, the cool website, the Descent-ish 6DoF, and all the other "unfinished, but coming soon!" features... sounds great, doesn't it?

They've taken your $$, they've taken the $$ of Descent fans all over the world. Yet for all their marketing, they have no more than an entirely-offline "proof of concept" demo, and vague hints about future release.

---

I'm sorry, but I do not appreciate someone coming in and taking monetary advantage of the DBB.net and others due to the fact that we all desperately hope to see another Descent-like game.

Honestly, KB, as a founding member of the online Descent community... I personally think this should bother you, too.

Foil wrote:

psionik wrote:My post was not aimed at one person...

Neither was mine; I'm pointing at red flags throughout the entire MW project here, not you in particular.

But okay, let's keep it impersonal and professional:


Psionik, in the interest of the fans here who would like to see MW someday, can you please answer the following?


1. Is there a projected release date for either MW game (not the demo, not alpha, not beta... the full release)?


2. Is there a date users should expect online functionality in the demo?


3. Is there a guarantee for pre-purchasers (i.e. will they get a refund if nothing is released in, say, a year)?


4. Would you explain exactly how the following advertising indicates two separate games?

Original Miner Wars descriptions, before they were changed wrote:"Miner Wars is ... a combination of single player story game and MMO."

"Gameplay is led by an epic story and is a combination of a single/multi-player game, cooperative, or you against everyone."

"...Single-player Mode and MMO Mode..."

5. MinerWars.com claims the game will be "featured" by Intel at the Game Developer's Conference a few weeks from now. However, there is no information anywhere by GDC or Intel to corroborate this. Can you provide any outside confirmation?

I think this is a much more healthy dialogue and so I will do my best to get these answers for you. I will put them forth to the team and see what we can come up with, and I will post back with the answers. I can tell you that Marek will say that it's very hard to really establish any kind of dates because he simply doesn't know exactly how long it will take him to finish what he is working on. That said, I have heard him say Multi is roughly 3 months out, and that was about two months ago, so it's possible we could be looking at it in a month, but again that could change. Regarding the MMO split, I have nothing to do with it and I honestly cannot defend or answer any questions regarding it but I can tell you that from my perspective that Marek has always spoken of the two entities of Miner Wars as being separate. Perhaps I can get him to explain the exact details of what happened, but I think we should just go with the flow, I really don't think any harm came of it and they certainly didn't intend to cause any.

Foil,

It's not the questions or the desire to seek the truth, it's the way that we as a community have always treated the developers and their messengers.

As for the 13 bucks I invested so what I invest over 26busks a month to keep you guys with the DBB. (sorry it's in such dis-array)

I am glad that you guys ask the questions that we all want to know me included. It's how some choose to communicate that screws things up.

Be constructive not destructive, this keeps people from getting defensive and causing rifts, when rifts open communities split!

Ask questions get answers but what ever you do don't kill the messengers! Look psionk doesn't set any schedules, he doesn't program any backend stuff he doesn't pay any bills! He is however one of us and he is here trying to provide us a chance to have a pipeline to the developers it might be a small one but it is a pipeline if we are smart we can use it or close it off.

Foil I appreciate your last approach that should be the template for the way we all propose questions.

Obviously we lve up to our title .... Descent'rs

I love all of you the .com peeps to you see all of us have a common bond! Descent!

you have to look at it from a more grounded perspective KB.

We want something like this to come to fruition. we really do. It's been such a long time that we're clamoring for any information to be released.

But when you're told that from the developers that you can't see it yet for one reason or another, it should give you reason to pause. If anything a developer should be absolutely excited to show you any content available. It should be a flood of information. Screenshots, teasers, trailers, gameplay clips, weapon, enemy and graphics info for example. Every devhouse has done this, including 3drealms released content for duke nukem forever when they were working on it. But not KSH for some reason. And I'm with foil on this one. it's unsettling.

We've seen many projects come, and many just disappear into the abyss, never to be heard from again. So, it stands to reason that there's a few of us who are rather skeptical of what's already been posted.

It seems we each have only one part of the fair and balanced viewpoint that we each should have. Someone wanting to get all the information would have to read all the posts in this topic instead of just one. Fair and balanced viewpoints are hard, for sure... but they shouldn't be this hard. We each have our own bias based on past experience. (Learning from experience is not always a good thing )

To be fair, I don't remember any project like this before that actually reached a playable state (and yes I consider the Pre-alpha to be playable... it's actually very fun).
I'm not going to mention what Foil has on the line here since he didn't, he probably doesn't want to. He may not even remember.

Personally I'm an optimist/idealist rather than a pessimist/realist. It makes life more fun. So I'm still optimistic about this.

(Stupid keyboard. The backspace key is stuck).

Alter-Fox wrote:I'm not going to mention what Foil has on the line here since he didn't, he probably doesn't want to. He may not even remember.

If you have something you want to say, say it.

Alter-Fox wrote: To be fair, I don't remember any project like this before that actually reached a playable state (and yes I consider the Pre-alpha to be playable... it's actually very fun).

Uhm, Into Cerberon was "playable". and it was fun. But it looks dead now to me.
BUT, I'm keeping my ear to the ground in case it should resurrect.

I generally err on the skeptical side of things. I'm not saying I don't believe this project has potential at least, but I was never a pre-order guy anyway. Especially under circumstances like this where there is some question as to the integrity of the project.

Miner Wars looks a lot like several projects I started but never finished development-wise. This makes me more suspicious.

The verdict is that I'm way more likely to go after a finished product then a "questionable" pre-order.

Hello,

I am Marek Rosa, founder of Keen Software House and author of Miner Wars.

I respect Foil's opinion and his doubts, so I am not going to try to change his mind. I just hope we will be able to convince him after the game is finished.

For others, I want to clear up few things:

- I started creating Miner Wars in 2001 (C++, OpenGL), but I was distracted by other side projects I had to do for living... so there were huge delays. Later, I decided to manage my life so I could focus only on Miner Wars development. This happened in 2008, and since then I work only on Miner Wars (fulltime)

- pre-orders are a great method how to convince investors that this is a perspective business!!

- I am still giving my personal money into the company and honestly, I haven't had salary or anything like that in last 2.5 years - but it doesn't matter... this project is more important than my life

Thanks to everyone who is supporting us!

Bye,
Marek

Hi Marek,

Thank you for stopping in. I am excited about your effort and as I have supported other efforts in the past I will support you in anyway I can. I too lean towards optimism anything else is ... well it's negative

I and many of us here still play Descent or D2 or D3 the key word is we STILL play. I guess we are true fanatics of Descent which is 15 years old! This alone will make us a tough crowd. But if your efforts pan out and we have something new, we will still play Descent

Now I am babbling, best of wishes and when you stop around us, be sure put on your hard hard and bullet proof vest ... we don't pull any punches!

But you can rest assured that there are several hundred thousand Descent'rs that have been waiting for a game that would be worthy!

My hat is off to you and the team you have pulled together!

KB

Foil kind of made a bet on PD. Let me see if I can dig out that thread.

Foil wrote:Tell you what. If they release a playable online version anytime in the next year, I will let the PD community pick a horrifically embarrassing method of apology for me to do. (But it's not gonna happen.)

I'm not sure if this is just a one-sided bet either. If it's not, I have no idea what he's going to make us do if he wins.

BTW I was not around in the community at the time of most of these other projects. (I only signed up here in 2007). So this gives me a bit more optimism towards new projects I guess.
Miner Wars really has a lot of potential and I definitely hope it will be finished. And they do have a large (very large and larger) fan base already.

BTW @Foil - I have a policy of respecting privacy whenever I'm not sure whether someone will mind me repeating something that they said.

Yep, I posted that on October 15th.

I have no problem honoring it here, too.

Great to hear that you have passion for your game. I hope you finish it and it is a success!

MinerWars wrote: - pre-orders are a great method how to convince investors that this is a perspective business!!

No one is ever getting any (non-refundable) pre-order cash out of me on an incomplete game or beta. Finish the game or at least have a release date firmly set then I'll think about it.

psionik wrote:

Foil wrote:Psionik, in the interest of the fans here who would like to see MW someday, can you please answer the following?
<Questions>

... I will do my best to get these answers for you. I will put them forth to the team and see what we can come up with, and I will post back with the answers.

Thank you, Psionik. When should we expect those answers?

Foil,

Didn't Marek answer your questions?

Do you need to hear the same thing from Psonik? He was going to Marek to get answers for you Foil.

Am I missing something here?

MinerWars wrote:Hello,

I am Marek Rosa, founder of Keen Software House and author of Miner Wars.

I respect Foil's opinion and his doubts, so I am not going to try to change his mind. I just hope we will be able to convince him after the game is finished.

For others, I want to clear up few things:

- I started creating Miner Wars in 2001 (C++, OpenGL), but I was distracted by other side projects I had to do for living... so there were huge delays. Later, I decided to manage my life so I could focus only on Miner Wars development. This happened in 2008, and since then I work only on Miner Wars (fulltime)

- pre-orders are a great method how to convince investors that this is a perspective business!!

- I am still giving my personal money into the company and honestly, I haven't had salary or anything like that in last 2.5 years - but it doesn't matter... this project is more important than my life

Thanks to everyone who is supporting us!

Bye,
Marek

KoolBear wrote:Didn't Marek answer your questions?

No. Marek's statement was about development delays, fundraising, and his personal sacrifices.

It did not answer any of the questions I posed. I assume Psionik is still working on them, and want to know when they will be answered.

eek Foil's got fangs.

Not at all. I'm simply interested in the specific answers to those questions.

[Edit: It doesn't matter to me whether the specifics come directly from Marek, or Psionik collects and posts the answers as he promised. What matters is that the issues need to be addressed.]

Ah, I misread... as usual..

Hi Foil,

here are answers for your questions:

-----
1. Is there a projected release date for either MW game (not the demo, not alpha, not beta... the full release)?

A: yes, end of 2011.


-----
2. Is there a date users should expect online functionality in the demo?

A: yes, summer 2011.


-----
3. Is there a guarantee for pre-purchasers (i.e. will they get a refund if nothing is released in, say, a year)?

A: Not a \"deadline refund\". If anybody thinks that buying MW at this moment is too risky, then just don't buy it... I am fine with that and we are not forcing anybody. We wanted to give people something to play while we finish the game, not to start fights on discussion boards.


-----
4. Would you explain exactly how the following advertising indicates two separate games?

Original Miner Wars descriptions, before they were changed wrote:
\"Miner Wars is ... a combination of single player story game and MMO.\"

\"Gameplay is led by an epic story and is a combination of a single/multi-player game, cooperative, or you against everyone.\"

\"...Single-player Mode and MMO Mode...\"

A: Miner Wars is term describing whole Miner Wars universe, our game client, our game server, and most important - all Miner Wars games. It's an umbrella term. Then there are or will be specific products, each one carrying its own name: Miner Wars 2081, Miner Wars MMO, ... people will purchase the product, but it will just unlock the feature in Miner Wars game. There will be always just one game client (or game copy on your hard drive).

I don't see how we could be trying to scam with this... we actually gave up few thousands Miner Wars MMO copies to people who purchased just the Miner Wars 2081, to clear up the confusion.


-----
5. MinerWars.com claims the game will be \"featured\" by Intel at the Game Developer's Conference a few weeks from now. However, there is no information anywhere by GDC or Intel to corroborate this. Can you provide any outside confirmation?

A: Intel probably wants to announce it later, right before GDC, ... I don't know exactly. We really didn't made up this document: http://mirror1.minerwars.com/Downloads/ ... l_2011.pdf

We got approval that we can publish the document now.

-------------

All these answers are available on our webs site, our forum and we talk about them on regular weekly meetings with the fans. Everything is public.

People please don't forget: we are the good guys -> brave, honest, modest and fantastic!

Bye,
Marek

Marek,

Thank you, I for one will remain optimistic. AS I stated before I am willing to provide any assistance I can.

Again, thanks for your time and effort to answer Foils questions.

Posted the link over on the Eve Online forums. Be interesting to read responses. The \"100k on one server\" ought to attract some attention. Though I ought to warn you Marek, that with the large server loads considerable lag will be a problem and I hope you do a better job managing lag than Eve does. So far Eve has not had more than 50k players on at one time and depending on systems and amount in that system, lag can be so bad that people are being black screened with log-ins well nigh impossible.

Thank you for the specific answers, Marek.

From what I've seen, I still doubt you will ever be able to meet those dates, and I'm still very bothered by the fact that you are pre-selling something that's not even in Alpha yet. However, it's good to have official word from the primary creator.

Foil, I agree with the \"date doubt\" thing... the only thing I am 100% sure and confident is that we will finish Miner Wars, sooner or later.

I've waited so long for another 6DoF game, one more year, or even two or three, isn't going to make a difference. To be honest, TrackMania 2 is looking worse and worse (no progress updates for the last year, and they already missed one deadline), and MW is looking better and better.

Everyone remembers Duke Nukem Forever right? Well it's now slated for a March or May release after 10 yrs. Anything is possible.

Merlin, at that rate, the original Descent4 project could have taken up ten years to gain the proper rights. I recall a post by Valin Halcyon stating it would take ten years. It was more than likely a random time period thrown out for example purposes, but by now we could have gotten it.

I'm optimistic as well. I kicked in on this a few months back and I'll have the mmo when it's released as well (assuming it's released). You have to give them credit that at least when they clarified that the mmo was separate they still gave you time to jump in and get both for original price. I spent $13. I spend that on beer in a weekend easily.

I'm a little skeptical as well but for those peanuts and my jonesing after all the teasing and dead projects over the years it's worth it to me that my little bet might help keep them afloat long enough to make it really happen. I'm going with the positive attitude and we'll see what happens.

More power to ya Marek and Psion. Hopefully I'll see you guys in the game one day. That's not the old TA Marek is it? Hats off Psion! It's been awhile man.


...fyi I bought it after some consideration back in November - viewtopic.php?t=17566&highlight=

Core Decision
Into Cerberon
Event Horizon
Miner Wars

Only Miner Wars has gotten past a simple tech demo (Into Cerberon kind of did, but it was a mod). I know how hard it is to get video game project going, so congrats!

I'm not as much of a video game nerd as I used to be, but when it comes out, I'll buy it!

Sorry I haven't been back to update yet - school got me by the balls right now


This is out today, was just linked in dev chat.

Intel info/Proof update:

http://www.intel.com/cd/software/partne ... 468726.htm

AWESOME, thanks for the updates!

PROOF POINT
“Our goal is to make Miner Wars run great— at 60 fps— on high-end systems,
but we’re also making it run well on smaller computers so it can be enjoyed
by netbook users.”

Right now I have a Desktop with a P4 2.8 gig oc'd to 3.0 gig 2.5 gig of ram and a Radeon X1650 Pro AGP. I hope to get a better system by the time Miner Wars comes out,but would my current system be able to run it? Either on XP or 7 which I dual-boot? If the sys requirements are posted somewhere else,please forgive this post

seeker3 wrote:PROOF POINT
“Our goal is to make Miner Wars run great— at 60 fps— on high-end systems,
but we’re also making it run well on smaller computers so it can be enjoyed
by netbook users.”

Right now I have a Desktop with a P4 2.8 gig oc'd to 3.0 gig 2.5 gig of ram and a Radeon X1650 Pro AGP. I hope to get a better system by the time Miner Wars comes out,but would my current system be able to run it? Either on XP or 7 which I dual-boot? If the sys requirements are posted somewhere else,please forgive this post

I run the demo on a P4 3ghz, 2 gigs ram and Nvidia 7600GT (AGP) and yes it runs but it bogs down when there are a lot of explosions.

psionik wrote:Intel info/Proof update:

http://www.intel.com/cd/software/partne ... 468726.htm

Looks like a copy of the Intel promotional write-up which was previously only found on the MW site (link). Good to see that it's on the Intel site as well.

Honestly, though, I'm more interested in the claim that Miner Wars will be "featured"/"showcased" at the Game Developer's Conference in a few days. I still can't find anything to confirm that.

Ok thanks CDN_Merlin, I went to the Miner Wars FAQ and found this:

What are the minimum System Requirements?

* CPU: 2.0 GHz
* RAM: 1GB (1.5GB on Windows Vista)
* Graphics Card: NVidia GeForce 6 series or better, ATI Radeon R520 (X1300-X1950) or better, Intel GMA X4500 or better. Requires at least Pixel-Shader 3.0.
* Video Memory: 128 MB
* Hard Drive: 1 GB
* Sound Card: DirectX 9.0c Compatible
* Operating System: Microsoft Windows XP with Service Pack 2 or Microsoft Vista
* DirectX: DX9.0c or DX10
* Network: Active internet connection during installation and during game play! (This may be changed in the future for certain play modes).

It is vital that your graphics card supports Pixel Shader 3.0.

So I would have to run on it low settings if I don't upgrade my comp.

P.S Anybody got a dual core and mobo they would care to donate or sell cheap to a worthy cause,namely moi?

http://www.minerwars.com/News.aspx wrote:Intel will be showcasing Miner Wars 2081 in the upcoming GDC 2011, March, in San Francisco - http://www.gdconf.com/

MinerWars wrote:

Foil wrote:...there is no information anywhere by GDC or Intel to corroborate this. Can you provide any outside confirmation?

A: Intel probably wants to announce it later, right before GDC, ... I don't know exactly.

This is odd.

According to the people running the Intel exhibits at the GDC, Miner Wars is not being "showcased" or "featured". In fact, it is not even on their radar as a 'target app' to be shown or demo'd at all.

Would one of the MW developers explain this discrepancy?

Is uplink studios (and Psionik) involved in MW?

Also interested if Marek is TA Marek?

ReadyMan wrote:Is uplink studios (and Psionik) involved in MW?

Nope - Uplink studios is not involved one bit.

Sounds like Psionik is though.

TA Marek lived near Toronto when I met him. He was into programming at that time. He was Polish IIRC. I had wondered the same thin myself.

We have public meetings every Saturday at 1:00 PST, feel free to join and ask any questions you may have.


Teamspeak info:

minerwars.workisboring.com:9989
pass MW


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